The often discounted "flyer"

[GuroChris]

OK, I'm sure this is going to stir the pot a bit, but.....

Can someone define for me exactly what a "flyer" is and why it shouldn't count when evaluating the precision of a particular rifle and load.

I've always thought that if you have a " called" shot outside the group, that really isn't a flyer because you know what happened to cause the outlier. If you have an unexpected outlier from the group and can't explain why, then how come this isn't included in the evaluation? After all, if you didn't call it then as far as you know you weren't the cause. That just leaves the ammo and rifle to blame. But if you hand loaded the ammo the same as the rest or its from the same lot in the case of factory loads, then shouldn't that count as well.

I bring this up because is see a lot of stuff on the internet where guys say "Look at this group here, except for that one its really good" and they continue on extolling the virtues of the accuracy of the rifle/load combo. If this happens even on a semi regular basis then isn't that shooter/rifle/load combo really just a 1.5MOA set up?

Look at my photo. It's 1.24 inches, Buut, if I don't count that one flyer it's .67 "all day long" as they say.

Tell me what you guys think. I think on an average day I'm a 1.25 MOA shooter. Sure some days are better than others but, isn't that just how life is?

 

[SilverbulletMAG]

Completely agree with your thought process on a "called" shot not being the same as an unknown "flier". Also 100% agree fliers shouldn't be ignored if it's consistently showing up in a group. Lots of things that could cause a random flier though. I went way down the rabbit whole on this trying to figure out why a particular rifle of mine would consistently put 2 random shots in the same hole with a 3rd shot always opening the group to ~MOA. For context, pencil thin barrel and a hunting rifle that will never see more than a 3 shot string so, I did not do 5 shot groups. This particular rifle would randomly throw the shot outside the group though, so it wasn't always a particular shot in the sequence. I was able to rule out a hot barrel, wasn't a cleaning/fouling issue, all brass was annealed, prepped, and trimmed the same, powder measurements were within a single grain or two, solid cheek weld, parallax set, I was fairly certain it wasn't me pulling shots so I was pretty stumped. After ripping my hair out and a lot of trial and error, it turned out to be neck tension. Once that was addressed, my fliers went away more or less. Another big variable I have yet to get sorted is how to permanently fix the nut behind the rifle.

 

[GuroChris]

At least now I know I'm not alone in my thinking. And on this site I think that means I'm in good company.

For now I'm shooting factory ammo so the neck tension thing is out of my hands. Once I burn through the case I'll be hand loading and keep that in the back of my mind. But for now like I've said before, that rifle shoots better than I do. That will change over time and maybe I can become one of the legion of shooters out there who scoff at .75 MOA groups.

 

[SilverbulletMAG]

Sorry, I was thinking you were hand loading. If you're using factory ammo, not really anything you can do to control fliers outside of doing your part with good fundamentals. If you're stuck with factory ammo, best bet is to try several different boxes of factory ammo until you find one your rifle prefers. I bet with the right ammo, you're capable of better groups than you're giving yourself credit for. With a bad combo, even the best shooter can't make it group any better.

 

[just_jon]

Battled a similar issue earlier this year. 6.5 CM loads that were 1/2-5/8" @100 were shooting 1.2" groups stringing vertically. Checked all my gear and found no issues. No atmospheric expiation. Confused, I called confused a buddy who suggested I film my shooting form. Set up my iPhone next day and within 10 shots discovered my cheek weld not consistent.

 

[Frog4aday]

I feel the same as you GuroChris - if a person shoots a 'group', shouldn't ALL the shots count unless you (the shooter) knowingly choked and did something obvious to mess up a particular shot (a "called" flyer, as it were?) If people just discount a shot that didn't go where they liked, then yeah, they can get 'great groups' quite often. But they aren't "real" groups, are they?

Read a story recently about a custom gun maker trying to figure out where flyers were coming from since everything was built with ultimate precision in mind. Took many hours and high speed cameras to realize it was from the TRIGGER, of all things. Apparently the firing pin was dragging ever so slightly on part of the trigger assembly, affecting the consistency of the lock time and impact force. Amazing. I never would have thought of the trigger itself being the issue.

Another fellow on here posted that his 'flyers' ended up being from a slight bent firing pin. Again, threw off the timing and impact of the primer just enough to cause those random, one-off weird shots.

So, I'm with you. Flyers that get 'discounted' because they messed up what would otherwise be a nice group are important. They are telling us SOMETHING if we would just take the time to figure it out. Or we can keep fooling ourselves into thinking our gun, loads, and scope are just amazing...when they really aren't.

 

[25WSM]

I had a 243 I rebarreled for a guy that would put 3 in a 1/4 inch group and 2 in a 1/4 inch group about 1 inch apart. Looked over everything and couldn't get it sorted out. It would throw them into the 2 spots at random too. Finally figured it out. It was his base. The curve in the base was bigger than the action and the screw heads were the only thing keeping it stable. Bedded the base and it was putting them all in a ragged hole. Only takes a small issue to cause problems. Sometimes they are hard to isolate.
Shep

 

[Alex Wheeler]

FAR too often a shot out of the group is called a flier. If you know you pulled the shot, that will be obvious. Or if you see a mirage or wind switch at the last second and the shot went with the switch you can call that. If your not sure why the shot went out of the group, IT DIDN'T. Thats the accuracy potential of your rifle. A lot of rifles throw shots out of the group. Its in the rifle. Thats where the finer details of the build come in. Its usually in the action or scope. I dont care if the rifle will put 9 in a hole and throw the 10th an inch. Its a 1 inch gun.

 

[GuroChris]

I have 3 factory loads I'm using with good results. For general training I'm using military MK316 Mod 0. Its a 175gr SMK. occasionally I use the tried and true Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr. But for hunting right now I'm using Federal Premium LE Tactical Bonded Tipped with a 168 gr bullet.

I have managed to post some sub .5MOA groups with each of these loads just not consistently. That's why all the practice. Once I burn through the case of MK316 I have I'll start down the reloading rabbit hole for this gun.

 

[YZ-80]

Here's one that happened to me the other day at 300 yards. I was bummin' about that one at the front of the caliper. I have no idea how it happened and didn't call it. I don't know which shot it was in the 5 shot string either. In the final analysis, it's probably just another one of my miserable failures.

 

[matemike]

What's equally frustrating is when you squeeze off a shot and immediately KNOW it was bad and don't want to look. But once you quit your wincing you look through your glass and see it dead center, the confusion sets in. It's always mind boggling to me, but I sure as heck count it.

 

[codyadams]

I agree, called fliers are one thing, IF they don't consistently happen. If you shoot 5 groups, and you pulled at least one shot in 3 out of the 5 groups, then you should count it as your ability, because if you have a tendency to pull shots, that is part of your ability until you can remedy it. The rifle may be capable of much more, but that doesn't really matter.

Example:
I know a good track hoe is capable of popping the cap off a beer bottle with a good operator, but I sure couldn't do it. I'm capable of making an oddly shaped hole, thats about it.

Flyers where shooter form was good, the shooter is a proven shooter, the shot had no obstructions, and everything felt consistent and it is somewhat of a "surprise" to the shooter, that comes down to the firearm system, whether it's the rifle, optic, or ammunition, and should also be counted in the group.

The exception is something along the lines of you shoot 9 - 5 shot 100 yd groups, all .3"-.4", and on your 10th one you wang chung a trigger press, and before you even look you know you hit low left, and you look, and your shot is low left, where you anticipated. This isn't an exact formula of course, just an example. In that case, that gun/shooter is a solid .4" shooter. All of this is my opinion, of course, ha ha.

 

[eschafer]

After ripping my hair out and a lot of trial and error, it turned out to be neck tension. Once that was addressed, my fliers went away more or less.

How exactly did you address the neck tension? I have a re-occuring nightmare replaying my range sessions, fliers and all....

 

[SilverbulletMAG]

How exactly did you address the neck tension? I have a re-occuring nightmare replaying my range sessions, fliers and all....

In hindsight, stuff that should be pretty obvious but, clearly wasn't to me at the time. Like most things in life, I needed to learn the hard way. Long story short, more consistent annealing by using tempilac and not just "eyeballing it", neck turning brass, using bushing dies and while I am a huge fan of the Lee factory crimp die, I glued the lock ring in place so the crimp was consistent all the time.