The good, bad, ugly, and entertainment of "Crazy ideas"

[WildRose]

In my time here and out in the shooting world I've seen a lot of things initially get labeled as "crazy ideas" turn into some really great ideas that actually took hold.

Many of them have to do of course with trying to find a large enough case to put what seems like an insane amount of powder behind a bullet to come up with the next "Super dooper Magnum!".

Some of those of course proved to be insane while a few caught hold and have really enriched our hunting and shooting sports, and given people new ways to challenge themselves in ways that didn't exist forty, even 30 years ago, at least not in the broad market.

I've found often when I say, "What about doing XYZ, well if I did far enough except for the newest cases I find someone probably already has.

I had to laugh because sitting here tonight reading posts it dawned on me I have yet to hear someone propose or say they already have a 6mm-375 Ruger which would probably have a muzzle velocity approaching that of the 220 Swift or 204 Ruger.

Now I don't want to own one, I'm not even sure I'd want to shoot one given the opportunity but I'd love to see video of the first coyote killed with one... HA!

 

[Stammster]

17-50 BMG?

.17 Incinerator — Ultimate Varmint Cartridge with Mach 5 Speed « Daily Bulletin

In the world of varmint cartridges, it's all about speed. Higher velocity delivers flatter trajectories, and more dramatic impacts on critters. To achieve higher speeds, handloaders have experimented with many extreme wildcats -- big cases necked down to a smal...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[Blacktailer]

Here ya go from PO Ackley circa 1965.

 

[WildRose]

17-50 BMG?

.17 Incinerator — Ultimate Varmint Cartridge with Mach 5 Speed « Daily Bulletin

In the world of varmint cartridges, it's all about speed. Higher velocity delivers flatter trajectories, and more dramatic impacts on critters. To achieve higher speeds, handloaders have experimented with many extreme wildcats -- big cases necked down to a smal...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

The problem with that is you'd probably need a solid titanium bullet just to keep it from flaming out.

We actually had that problem with some cup and core .17 bullets that would separate from the jacket at about 50 yards and the lead just went "poof" in a little puff of smoke around a hundred.

When my dad and his partner figured out they were probably running around 4600-4,800fps they decided to back things back down to around 4,000 fps and original Barnes X bullets solved the other problems.

 

[Rem81]

But I want a .257 nosler magnum, to shoot 133 Bergers!!!!

 

[Varmint Hunter]

IIRC, Saeed over on Accuratereloading.com was launching 22 cal bullets at over 5,000 ft/sec. Prior to that, I didn't believe that bullets could achieve that much velocity. The expansion ratio of burning propellants must have some limits ????

 

[WildRose]

IIRC, Saeed over on Accuratereloading.com was launching 22 cal bullets at over 5,000 ft/sec. Prior to that, I didn't believe that bullets could achieve that much velocity. The expansion ratio of burning propellants must have some limits ????

Indeed, mostly pressure limits which is why bigger cases use slower burning powders, it avoids blowing up very expensive rifles shooting insane wildcats, HA!

 

[Tiny Tim]

IIRC, Saeed over on Accuratereloading.com was launching 22 cal bullets at over 5,000 ft/sec. Prior to that, I didn't believe that bullets could achieve that much velocity. The expansion ratio of burning propellants must have some limits ????

I thought I read once the expansion of burning powder was approximately 5,600 fps. That was probably 15 years ago. Modern advancements may have increased it some. Some of the bullet manufacturers are doing their part to reduce friction losses.

 

[WildRose]

I thought I read once the expansion of burning powder was approximately 5,600 fps. That was probably 15 years ago. Modern advancements may have increased it some. Some of the bullet manufacturers are doing their part to reduce friction losses.

That's going to vary a lot with burn rates.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Yes sir. I should have clarified that 5,600 fps was what was considered overall max for the time.

 

[AZShooter]

I can't imagine necking down a 375 Ruger to 6mm.

Ross Seyfried wrote an article, back in the 1990s, where he made a 6mm/264 win mag which he called the 6mm mach IV. He stated that he could get 4205 fps with IMR 7828 and 70 grain nosler BT and 4150 fps with 75 grain x bullet.

He talked about it being the closest thing to a death ray he had ever used. He had an issue with a hard carbon like substance building up on the first barrel due to not cleaning it every dozen rounds or so. IIRC he had to throw away that first barrel.


I had a heavy barreled 30" 6mm-284 win with a 1 in 7.5 twist that shot 105 Bergers fast and accurately. I decided to see if I could make a sporter weight with similar performance. Knew I needed more case capacity with a shorter barrel. Decided to regrind a 7 Rem mag reamer to 6mm. First attempt was enough to discourage me. As I tried to work up loads the resultant fouling was changing groups sizes and velocity. I had to stop and clean before continuing. The chore of such frequent cleaning and inconsistent groups caused me to leave the project. This crazy idea didn't work for me....

 

[WildRose]

I can't imagine necking down a 375 Ruger to 6mm.

Ross Seyfried wrote an article, back in the 1990s, where he made a 6mm/264 win mag which he called the 6mm mach IV. He stated that he could get 4205 fps with IMR 7828 and 70 grain nosler BT and 4150 fps with 75 grain x bullet.

He talked about it being the closest thing to a death ray he had ever used. He had an issue with a hard carbon like substance building up on the first barrel due to not cleaning it every dozen rounds or so. IIRC he had to throw away that first barrel.


I had a heavy barreled 30" 6mm-284 win with a 1 in 7.5 twist that shot 105 Bergers fast and accurately. I decided to see if I could make a sporter weight with similar performance. Knew I needed more case capacity with a shorter barrel. Decided to regrind a 7 Rem mag reamer to 6mm. First attempt was enough to discourage me. As I tried to work up loads the resultant fouling was changing groups sizes and velocity. I had to stop and clean before continuing. The chore of such frequent cleaning and inconsistent groups caused me to leave the project. This crazy idea didn't work for me....

Well the 6.5 LRM has proven amazing for me and with modern slow powders it runs pretty clean and will shoot 140gr bullets consistently at 3,400fps shooting tinly clover leafs.

I strongly suspect the same could be done with the 6mm pills probably getting another 400-600fps.

In fact the case has been around long enough I'd be shocked if someone hasn't already done so.

 

[357Mag]

IIRC, Saeed over on Accuratereloading.com was launching 22 cal bullets at over 5,000 ft/sec. Prior to that, I didn't believe that bullets could achieve that much velocity. The expansion ratio of burning propellants must have some limits ????

Varmint Hunter + -

Howdy !

Yeh..... rifle' "expansion ratio " does " have something to do with it ".

Taking a causual look @ some smaller calibre wildcats based on .375 Rger brass:

Hodgon load data showed 87.4gr as the max powder charge of any powder under the lightest .375 bullet listed.
When necking down to a smaller cal, lighte weght bullets would invariably be utilized. And, as calibre goes down, chamber pressure would nominally go up.

Refering to an " expansion ratio " chart ballistician Homer Powley had printed in the Guns & Ammo 1974 Annual ":
- Powley's chart only listed a low expansion ratio ( inefficient case ) of 4, and a high end expansion ratio ( efficient case ) of 14; for various calibres from .20" to .50" . * He did not show expansion ratios lower than, most likely since any such cartridge would be grossly inefficient @ turning powder into velocity.

- When necking down the parent case.... even w/o any additional changes other than neck diam and neck lg,
smaller diameter versions of the wildcat(s) would have decreased case capacity.... when such capacity is measured using H2O added up till it reaches the case mouth. Therefore, smaller calibre itterations will have a somewhat smaller space for the powder charge, but not a whole bunch less than the original calibre case held.

Powley's chart was graphed using a notional 28" barrel lg for all calibres listed. Per the graph, a notional .224" cal wildcat that holds 72gr or powder would peg the expansion ratio @ 4. A postulated ." 22-375 Ruger " would
exceed 72gr of powder in capacity; and so would have an even worse expansion ratio than 4.

* In 6mm...... the powder capcity would have to be close to 88gr for an expansion ratio of 4 to be reached.
Therefore, if the barrel of the " 6-.375 Ruger " chambered rifle were shortened any, to 26", 24", etc' the expansion ratio would go lower than 4. And 4 isn't all that great a ratio to start with.


With regards,
357Mag

holding

 

[Steves1911]

I tried messing around with 110gr vmax in 300rum once....they never made it to the target