eshorebwhntr
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info el matador. I'll most likely go stiller or defiance on the build. I was just curious if a700 would work because I hadn't given it any thought
If the Surgeon's the same outside diameter as the Remington, they're probably about equal. The 591 repeater weighs 2lbs 1.6 oz so it is very close to that of the Remington short action one. The Winchester 70 is a longer action by about ½ inch so it's better for the longer cartridges and should be compared to other long actions. That aside, the short action Win 70's are stiffer than the short action Rem 700 ones.How does the stiffness of a Model 70 compare to a Remington footprint action with an integral rail and lug? Something like this one... https://surgeonrifles.com/shop/591sa-repeater/
How accurate were they?Hmmm, out of my dozen+ belted rifles I've owned and loaded for, none of them have given me 1 inkling of trouble... And all have been just as accurate as my non-belted caliber rifles.
Were did I say belted cases were unreliable and not as accurate?And if belts were such a concern, unreliable, and not as accurate, why does the military keep deploying M24's in .300 Win Mag?
Get a rifle that'll shoot 15 to 20 shots inside 10 inches at 1000 yards with any case then compare both sizing methods. If you do all the right stuff with the right stuff, the difference will be easily seen.I still want to see the proof of this which you keep touting...
If the Surgeon's the same outside diameter as the Remington, they're probably about equal. The 591 repeater weighs 2lbs 1.6 oz so it is very close to that of the Remington short action one. The Winchester 70 is a longer action by about ½ inch so it's better for the longer cartridges and should be compared to other long actions. That aside, the short action Win 70's are stiffer than the short action Rem 700 ones.
Remington made their 40X short action match rifles chambered for the .30-.338 and 7mm Rem Mag rounds and were a nightmare to use in matches if one had to unload a live round.
How accurate were they?
Did they ever put 15 to 20 shots inside 2/3 MOA at 1000 yards all fired in 10 to 15 minutes properly tested with either new cases or properly full length sized ones? The OP wants a long range rifle.
Were did I say belted cases were unreliable and not as accurate?
Does the military save their fired .300 Win Mag cases then reload them? I don't think so. They use new cases to see if the M24's meet accuracy specs. And from what I've seen, those specs are not all that great: "The extreme spread of any individual 10-shot group shall not exceed 9.0 inches at 600 yards. The average extreme spread of ten, 10-shot groups shall not exceed 7.0 inches at 600 yards." Therefore, specs say the ammo has to test 1.5 MOA at 600 yards; it'll be close to 2 MOA at 1000. While some lots may be better, that's what forces have to count on.
Get a rifle that'll shoot 15 to 20 shots inside 10 inches at 1000 yards with any case then compare both sizing methods. If you do all the right stuff with the right stuff, the difference will be easily seen.
In their heyday at long range matches, the best of the 7mm Rem Mags, .30-.338's and .300 Win Mags would test under 2/3 MOA at 1000 yards for 20 to 30 shots fired in almost as many minutes. The civilian and military team members winning and setting records learned that conventional full length sizing those belted cases then reloading them didn't equal what new cases produced for best accuracy. Military teams often gave their once fired cases to civilians as they used only new cases. Civilians learned that if a body die was made that sized only the case body all the way to the belt returning it to virtual new case dimensions, accuracy was best and equaled what new cases would produce. Check out www.larrywillis.com to see a collet die that does that quite well; best thing for belted case accuracy.
One of the rimless 30 caliber magnums with a case capacity of the .30-.338 may well be the best compromise. Belted cases are too difficult to reload for best accuracy and new belted cases typically shoot bullets more accurate than resized ones.
The recoil of .30-.338 size cartridges is about the most one can handle and still get good accuracy afield hand holding it.
I'd use a Win 70 action over the Rem 700 ones. They're near 3 times stiffer and a lot more reliable plus easy to replace parts afield if needed.
Mudrunner,
I never said belted cases were horrible. Only that they needed a little different sizing methods which I described. Anyone who does all the right stuff will get excellent accuracy with them.
Looked at the groups in the links you provided. They show only the smallest groups shot; not the largest ones which better define the accuracy the cartridges give that can be counted on all the time. Any cartridge will shoot a very tiny group once in a while.
You only need it to do it once to win or set a record...
That's exactly what I'm saying.I'm not a mind reader, but it looks to me like you are saying Belted cases are more difficult to get to shoot accurately.
Were did I say belted cases were unreliable and not as accurate?
I'm not a mind reader, but it looks to me like you are saying Belted cases are more difficult to get to shoot accurately.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
You're making the wrong comparison of my comments.You literally make me want to tear my eyes out. You contradict yourself countless times. Why do I even bother responding to you...smh
I'm quite pleased with my 300AX which is a 30-338 Lapua improved. I have a mild load that pushes a 200gr accubond to 3340fps. I could easily turn it up to 3400fps but the current load shoots sub 1/4 minute groups...
Down side is barrel life but being a big game only rifle, it will serve you over many seasons. I feel that negative is out weighed by its extreme performance and brass life.