Shumba
Well-Known Member
The Vectronicx Terrapin is a monocular.
Swarovski EL Range binoculars - first field tests
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The Vectronicx Terrapin is a monocular.
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Hunter,
I've asked Richard the international sales manager so we'll see what he comes back with. All I can tell you was the results of my field testing. What I did was compare results with the El's with running the calcs on Shooter on my android phone, for 2 different rifles while we were in the mountains. I would pick a spot high above me to range to, then see what corrected range the EL's gave me, then run the calc thru Shooter for that angle and range, work it back to the level range that gave me the same come-ups, then compare with the EL result. In all cases it was within a few yards either way. I ran comparisons out to just under 1000 yards at about 30 degrees, which is a far as the EL's corrected range feature works, and 45 degrees out to about 500 yards. (Its nearly impossible to find terrain that will give you a 45 degree 1000 yard shot.)
I did this for 2 of our 7mm's we had hunting at the time, the 7mm FatMax (7mm/300NM improved) which pushes a 180gn Berger Hybrid at 3300fps out of a 26" barrel, and for the 7mm SF (7mm/338 Lapua imp)which pushes the 180gn Hybrid at 3420fps out of a 28" barrel.
I presumed that as it was so accurate that it actually is a TBR feature, not just a cosign. Trying to get those sort of answers from Swarovski isn't easy, as their grasp of English isn't that great. My understanding from Discussions with Richard Kramer was there is some sort of ballistic calculator incorporated into the EL's, not just a cosign deriver.
I do know it certainly works for serious long range cartridges in the field, but now you've got me thinking, so I'll run some more calcs comparing simple cosigns and see how close that comes. I'd be very surprised if cosigns could be that accurate, but we'll see.
I'll come back to you!
Greg
I've asked Richard the international sales manager so we'll see what he comes back with. All I can tell you was the results of my field testing. What I did was compare results with the El's with running the calcs on Shooter on my android phone, for 2 different rifles while we were in the mountains. I would pick a spot high above me to range to, then see what corrected range the EL's gave me, then run the calc thru Shooter for that angle and range, work it back to the level range that gave me the same come-ups, then compare with the EL result. In all cases it was within a few yards either way. I ran comparisons out to just under 1000 yards at about 30 degrees, which is a far as the EL's corrected range feature works, and 45 degrees out to about 500 yards. (Its nearly impossible to find terrain that will give you a 45 degree 1000 yard shot.)
I did this for 2 of our 7mm's we had hunting at the time, the 7mm FatMax (7mm/300NM improved) which pushes a 180gn Berger Hybrid at 3300fps out of a 26" barrel, and for the 7mm SF (7mm/338 Lapua imp)which pushes the 180gn Hybrid at 3420fps out of a 28" barrel.
I presumed that as it was so accurate that it actually is a TBR feature, not just a cosign. Trying to get those sort of answers from Swarovski isn't easy, as their grasp of English isn't that great. My understanding from Discussions with Richard Kramer was there is some sort of ballistic calculator incorporated into the EL's, not just a cosign deriver.
I do know it certainly works for serious long range cartridges in the field, but now you've got me thinking, so I'll run some more calcs comparing simple cosigns and see how close that comes. I'd be very surprised if cosigns could be that accurate, but we'll see.
I'll come back to you!
Greg
I'm new here, but maybe I can help answer some of the above questions as I've been using the EL Range 10x42 since around Christmas time.
The model that NZ Longranger is reviewing is the same model that is available in the US. They are rated to 1500 yards, but I've ranged light-colored bovines at nearly 1900 yards, and rocks past 2000 yards.
They range on button release, which helps hold them steady when ranging small targets or long distances. The reticle for aiming is in the right side, the yardage display is in the left side, which is one reason for their superior optical performance.
Optically they are equal to the pre-Swarovision EL binoculars with 90% light transmition through both tubes. The other RF binos suffer from fairly poor light transmission in the tube that houses the reticle. There is an immediate and obvious edge in optical perfomance when compared to other RF Binos.
Beam divergence is listed as .5 mrad wide by 1.5 mrad high, though I have no way to test this. They are very effective at picking up small objects at distance, especially when tripod mounted.
The angle compensation has 2 modes. It will either display line of sight distance and angle in degrees, or LOS distance AND angle compensated distance (under 1000 yards). Since there is no way to input any variables such as velocity, bc, etc. the corrected distance is calculated using the cosine of the angle.
Even though they are only a few ounces lighter than the Geovid, the open-bridge design and thier overall compactness give them a feel of being much lighter in the hand.
They are very limited in availability, and unless you have already placed an order for one, you are unlikely to get your hands on one until late in the year. They've been shipping since early Jan.
I hope this helps clear up some questions.
The model that NZ Longranger is reviewing is the same model that is available in the US. They are rated to 1500 yards, but I've ranged light-colored bovines at nearly 1900 yards, and rocks past 2000 yards.
They range on button release, which helps hold them steady when ranging small targets or long distances. The reticle for aiming is in the right side, the yardage display is in the left side, which is one reason for their superior optical performance.
Optically they are equal to the pre-Swarovision EL binoculars with 90% light transmition through both tubes. The other RF binos suffer from fairly poor light transmission in the tube that houses the reticle. There is an immediate and obvious edge in optical perfomance when compared to other RF Binos.
Beam divergence is listed as .5 mrad wide by 1.5 mrad high, though I have no way to test this. They are very effective at picking up small objects at distance, especially when tripod mounted.
The angle compensation has 2 modes. It will either display line of sight distance and angle in degrees, or LOS distance AND angle compensated distance (under 1000 yards). Since there is no way to input any variables such as velocity, bc, etc. the corrected distance is calculated using the cosine of the angle.
Even though they are only a few ounces lighter than the Geovid, the open-bridge design and thier overall compactness give them a feel of being much lighter in the hand.
They are very limited in availability, and unless you have already placed an order for one, you are unlikely to get your hands on one until late in the year. They've been shipping since early Jan.
I hope this helps clear up some questions.
Last edited:
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Kilmer,
You certainly sound like you have the info, but I can't quite make what you're saying work with my own field tests and calculations. You may be correct that it just takes the cosign of the LOS distance, but if this was the case, it should be miles out once you start getting steep and out a bit.
I just ran some calcs for one of the examples I actually tested in the field, and that was for the 7mm Fatmax pushing a 180gn Hybrid at 3300 fps. When I actually ranged a little alpine bush at 800 yards above me on a 30 degree angle, the El's gave me a corrected range of 745 yards.
Now when I compare my calculated drop from my 100 yard zero for 800 yards and 30 degrees for this, I get 88.2". Then do a level drop calc and you get 747 yards for the same drop. So for this example, the EL's were only 2 yards out. If they just did a cosine of the LOS distance, that would be 800 x .866 = 693 yards which is a drop of 72.5", so an error of about 55 yards and about 16". In all the examples I ran in the field, they were never more than 3 yards out.
I presumed they have some sort of ballistic calculator in them that picked and average trajectory curve and then worked out a TBR on this. That is the way Richard Kramer described it to me, as best I could understand. If you do some calcs running some comparisons of what sort of maximum angles at what sort of ranges you are likely to actually strike while out hunting even in the steepest mountains, you'll see an average curve actually puts you within a few inches all the way to 1000 yards. My point is you don't actually need to be able to input the various trajectory curves etc to get close enough out to 1000 yards, an average curve will do. You don't need velocities, BC's etc. You are only applying a TBR correction to your the level range come ups which already have all that for your particular cartridge incorporated.
Hopefully you follow what I mean?
Anyway, there is no way I could be getting the results I've been getting in the field if the EL's only applied the cosign to the LOS range. Unless my set have some basic offset built into them that just happens to have worked for the examples I tried in the field, but I find that very unlikely as I tried everything from 400 yards and 45 degrees out to 999 yards and 25 degrees, and they were within a few yards every time for the flat shooting 7mm's I was carrying at the time.
So please tell me how this is happening???
Greg
You certainly sound like you have the info, but I can't quite make what you're saying work with my own field tests and calculations. You may be correct that it just takes the cosign of the LOS distance, but if this was the case, it should be miles out once you start getting steep and out a bit.
I just ran some calcs for one of the examples I actually tested in the field, and that was for the 7mm Fatmax pushing a 180gn Hybrid at 3300 fps. When I actually ranged a little alpine bush at 800 yards above me on a 30 degree angle, the El's gave me a corrected range of 745 yards.
Now when I compare my calculated drop from my 100 yard zero for 800 yards and 30 degrees for this, I get 88.2". Then do a level drop calc and you get 747 yards for the same drop. So for this example, the EL's were only 2 yards out. If they just did a cosine of the LOS distance, that would be 800 x .866 = 693 yards which is a drop of 72.5", so an error of about 55 yards and about 16". In all the examples I ran in the field, they were never more than 3 yards out.
I presumed they have some sort of ballistic calculator in them that picked and average trajectory curve and then worked out a TBR on this. That is the way Richard Kramer described it to me, as best I could understand. If you do some calcs running some comparisons of what sort of maximum angles at what sort of ranges you are likely to actually strike while out hunting even in the steepest mountains, you'll see an average curve actually puts you within a few inches all the way to 1000 yards. My point is you don't actually need to be able to input the various trajectory curves etc to get close enough out to 1000 yards, an average curve will do. You don't need velocities, BC's etc. You are only applying a TBR correction to your the level range come ups which already have all that for your particular cartridge incorporated.
Hopefully you follow what I mean?
Anyway, there is no way I could be getting the results I've been getting in the field if the EL's only applied the cosign to the LOS range. Unless my set have some basic offset built into them that just happens to have worked for the examples I tried in the field, but I find that very unlikely as I tried everything from 400 yards and 45 degrees out to 999 yards and 25 degrees, and they were within a few yards every time for the flat shooting 7mm's I was carrying at the time.
So please tell me how this is happening???
Greg
Here is where it is hard for me. I already have els@ 20 oz. then Lieca 1600 @8 oz. pretty good combo and lighter . Then for $2000 I could get the PLRF 05,this puts me at similar weight and probable performance, but has only 5x mono. Which I have seen Shawn C, put a doubler on his and I HAVE ONE FOR MY ELS ALREADY. T he unit sounds great, just hard up grading all the time. But my rifle out shoots my old 1200 Lieca
How about that? I assumed that because my ballistics calculators and the EL Range pretty closely agreed that they were both using a cosine correction formula to adjust the range. After having spent the last hour playing with calculators, I must say that I stand corrected. There is obviously something more at work here than a simple cosine calculation. When I input a 30 degree angle at 800 yards I get anywhere from 715 yards to 765 yards corrected distance depending on caliber and calculator. Straight cosine would yeild 692 yards.
There must be some sort of statistically averaged ballistic profile that they use for calculation. I'm going to find out.
I stand firmly by everything else I posted, unless NZ Longranger says otherwise.
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
I stand firmly by everything else I posted, unless NZ Longranger says otherwise.
Hey, steady on, you'll swell my head!
Anyway, it will be good if you can find out more about just how they've done it. I've asked Swaro's international sales manager, but haven't heard back yet. All I know is it works in the field, as I s'pose that's really all that matters!
Greg
Kilmer:
Can you elaborate on the delivery situation? I've had a pair on order since late December, and the retailer can't even estimate when they'll be in...
Thanks,
Scott
They were announced in September 2011, and SONA started taking orders from dealers in October 2011. There are still a good number of those October orders that have not yet shipped.
Worldwide demand has far outpaced supply, and they are being shipped to dealers on an allocated basis.
Your dealer can't estimate when they will be in because SONA is having to manually allocate the small shipments they are recieving.
The last I heard, initial orders (Oct 2011) should be caught up late March, but that is a guess.
Clear as mud?
Worldwide demand has far outpaced supply, and they are being shipped to dealers on an allocated basis.
Your dealer can't estimate when they will be in because SONA is having to manually allocate the small shipments they are recieving.
The last I heard, initial orders (Oct 2011) should be caught up late March, but that is a guess.
Clear as mud?
From the Swarovski Optik website:
"The relative deviation of the flight paths between horizontal shot and angle shot is almost identical for different calibers. Due to a correction factor, calculated from distance and angle, the corrected shooting distance can be displayed.
The EL Range with SWAROAIM, equipped with a radically new angle-shot programme developed by SWAROVSKI OPTIK, enables you to accurately ascertain the correct distance for a precise shot, even in the most difficult terrain."
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Thanks Kilmer, yea, that's what Richard told me, which certainly sounds like they have come up with a new calculator that applies a correction to the level range that is not cosign based. Hard to be sure exactly what that means as the translation from Austrian to English confuses things to be sure. Anyway, as I said, it works in the field and that's all that matters!
We've been told we won't see any more other than the original shipment until July maybe, but I've got mine. Longest shot with them so far, Sika deer on Saturday at 1180 yards!
Greg
bigbulldoza
Member
Good advise, just bought a set... lost my lieca 1200 range finder in some hole I was hunting in. It gave me a great excuse to sell the ELs. I was really torn between these three... especially since i found Geovids for 2k and Rfs for 2200... figured I'd own'em for the rest of my life, made it an easy D! I'm looking forward to seeing dead animals through them!I've been playing with a pair of the new Swaro EL Range 10x42's for a week now. I've been comparing them to the previous benchmark ranging performance wise - the Zeiss RF binos, and also the Leica Geovids. I spent a few days with Richard Kramer, Swaro International Sales Manager while he was visiting New Zealand. He said they had wanted to beat their competitors models in every way, and that's why it has taken so long to get their new model on the market.
Well, optically, the Swaro's are definitely better than the RF's and the Geovid HD's. Their lowlight performance is amazing for a combo unit with the optical compromises incorporating a rangefinder entails.
Range wise, I've got 2250 yards to a grassy face out of them continually in late afternoon, and they'll do 2050 yards to the same face even in bright light. They'll do 1700 yards every time to a pine tree in bright light that the RF's will only get occasionally, 1 in 10 tries at best. The Geovids are limited to about 1440 yards, and even less in bright light.
In light misty rain which is really hard on rangefinders, as usual the Geovids wouldn't read at all, while the Swaro's and RF's managed about 1600 yards.
The Swaro's have an inclometer built in, and a good True Ballistic Range feature.
On top of this they are only the size of the old EL binos, with two bumps out the bottom to house the electronics. They are far less bulky and lighter than the opposition.
So it looks like the Swaro EL Range was well worth the wait!!!! They have the best rangefinder with the smallest beam divergence, the best inclometer features, the best optics, and all in the smallest package. We have a new bench mark in bino rangefinders!!!
Greg
Niles Coyote
Well-Known Member
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