Split group problem with ELDX

[catorres1]

Another clue maybe...
So as I was thinking about loading them long and just using the rifle as a 2 shooter or whatever, I took some of the brass I just shot (4th reloading)...it has not been resized yet. I took four pieces and stuck bullets in to try and see how they would sit in the magazine loaded to the needed length.

What I found is some brass took the bullets very easily. Some took the bullets somewhat firmly, and some were very tight.

Keep in mind, all this brass, Nosler, has been shot together...it is fired all on the same day, unsized. Been loaded 4x at this point. No annealing...I honestly don't even know how to do that.

But considering the difference in tension after firing...it makes me think maybe there is a huge difference in neck tension between pieces of brass (why, I don't know!), therefore pressure on some is higher than others....hence the terrible ES's and why some seemed a little hotter than others.

BTW, I have no idea how you measure neck tension. I load on Forster dies....I have noticed some bullets seat easier than others in different pieces of brass. I have actually noticed this with diffferent dies, brass, calibers.....so I wonder if I need to learn to anneal? Also, is there a tool to measure neck tension?

 

[Canhunter35]

I have a 300wby and use the 212eldx in it with h1000. Works great, the node is at 2825fps and does about .75moa with 16es at 82gr of h1000
I made another load with 200eldx, found a good node at 2990fps with 12 or so es and 86gr of h1000. It's better hunting load, inside of 600 has the advantage.
I'm pretty sure with a vanguard magazine those 212s will be seated inside the ogive, I have mine at 3.63" and they just fit. What you can do is buy replacement bottom metal from cdi and extend your vanguards magazine to 3.7", mine is being done right now.
stick with h1000, I've tried 7828 and 7977, 7828 works great but is temp sensitive, 7977 fills the case too much.

Your neck tension will be contributing to a wide es. Take ur fired brass, place the butt in an 9/16(I think) socket, slowly rotate with an impact and have a flame from a propane torch pointed at the neck. Rotate as the blue line of annealling moved down the case body about 1/2" then drop the case into water. Let dry then tumble followed by resize then the remaining case prep.

 

[catorres1]

I have a 300wby and use the 212eldx in it with h1000. Works great, the node is at 2825fps and does about .75moa with 16es at 82gr of h1000
I made another load with 200eldx, found a good node at 2990fps with 12 or so es and 86gr of h1000. It's better hunting load, inside of 600 has the advantage.
I'm pretty sure with a vanguard magazine those 212s will be seated inside the ogive, I have mine at 3.63" and they just fit. What you can do is buy replacement bottom metal from cdi and extend your vanguards magazine to 3.7", mine is being done right now.
stick with h1000, I've tried 7828 and 7977, 7828 works great but is temp sensitive, 7977 fills the case too much.

Your neck tension will be contributing to a wide es. Take ur fired brass, place the butt in an 9/16(I think) socket, slowly rotate with an impact and have a flame from acetalyne torch pointed at the neck. Rotate as the blue line of annealling moved down the case body about 1/2" then drop the case into water. Let dry then tumble followed by resize then the remaining case prep.

Thanks for the reply! Interestingly, 2825 is what I was getting with the 212's. I had them loaded at an OAL of 3.5"...which is what the book called for from Hornady but also is my max length.

On the CDI metal, tell me a bit about this, I have been looking into this. What rifle do you have? Are you doing the conversion to AICS mags? I talked to them on the phone, my dislike on that would be how the mag would hang down 1.5 inches or so beneath the trigger guard. Is there another options and who is doing your work?

As far as a torch, I have a propane torch, will that work as well?

 

[Canhunter35]

It's a wby vanguard being rebarrelled in a 7rm. Yeah I'll be using AICS mags in the new bottom metal. No other option really if you want a longer mag length.
For a 300wby and the 212eldx, hornady lists a coal of 3.700"
My mistake, A propane torch will work just fine. (Edited)

 

[catorres1]

Sorry, mine is a 300 win mag...Vanguard. So my overall length is shorter than yours...but that brings up a very interesting question re your box. I think I need to PM you....incoming.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I use a propane torch to anneal. I would think an acetalyne totch would be too hot.

 

[Kmccord]

I definitely would not use an acetylene torch, that would be way too hot and your brass would double over in a matter of seconds. I am wondering are you seeing donuts inside the neck shoulder area? If you take that fired brass and run the bullet in the case mouth can you run it all the way into the case or do you hit a wall around the neck shoulder area? If so, then you would need to team out the donut and probably turn your necks.

 

[catorres1]

I definitely would not use an acetylene torch, that would be way too hot and your brass would double over in a matter of seconds. I am wondering are you seeing donuts inside the neck shoulder area? If you take that fired brass and run the bullet in the case mouth can you run it all the way into the case or do you hit a wall around the neck shoulder area? If so, then you would need to team out the donut and probably turn your necks.

I can run the bullets all the way down on all of them. There is no spot that is 'tight' and then it loosens. It's just that some are tight from the very beginning all the way down, others, less tight, and still others, quite loose. Once I size them, they are all the same. So my thought is some must stretch and return a lot easier than others....like the brass is more flexible maybe? Not sure..I plan to load some out long and shoot them over a chrony. If it still happens, I will either experiment with some annealing with a propane torch...or more likely buy some new brass and see what happens. Nosler has a sale this weekend, but thinking about trying either some Gunwerks or some of that ADG stuff.

 

[Kmccord]

May verify length of the brass has not grown and needs trimming, also verify how much you are bumping the shoulders back when sizing. Most people with FL size dies bump the shoulder about .002 back to chamber for a hunting round, that will aid in stretching brass to much.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

You may need to turn the necks to get them uniform.

Steve

 

[0-tolerance]

I was able to get my es down to 10 by sorting my brass. I also just bump the shoulders back instead of relying on the belt for head space.

 

[Gord0]

Nosler is usually pretty decent brass, but you might be at the point that you need to anneal, or get new brass. I've found that it usually takes about 3-4 firings (depending on how hot a load you are running) to fully stretch win mag brass to the chamber. Then you want to bump the shoulder .002". You might be headspacing on the belt still.

 

[catorres1]

I just bought a new box of nosler brass and loaded them up. Have not shot them, but I think it's an annealing issue because the new brass seats so smoothly and consistently, where my old set is much more inconsistent in terms of how hard it is to get the bullet to seat. Most go in at one level, but some are a bit harder and some are harder still. So I suspect some of the brass has become harder than others, so I am getting inconsistent neck tension.

Thing is, I have never annealed before, don't know anyone around that does it. So new country for me, don't want to mess it up.

 

[tbrice23]

Another clue maybe...
So as I was thinking about loading them long and just using the rifle as a 2 shooter or whatever, I took some of the brass I just shot (4th reloading)...it has not been resized yet. I took four pieces and stuck bullets in to try and see how they would sit in the magazine loaded to the needed length.

What I found is some brass took the bullets very easily. Some took the bullets somewhat firmly, and some were very tight.

Keep in mind, all this brass, Nosler, has been shot together...it is fired all on the same day, unsized. Been loaded 4x at this point. No annealing...I honestly don't even know how to do that.

But considering the difference in tension after firing...it makes me think maybe there is a huge difference in neck tension between pieces of brass (why, I don't know!), therefore pressure on some is higher than others....hence the terrible ES's and why some seemed a little hotter than others.

BTW, I have no idea how you measure neck tension. I load on Forster dies....I have noticed some bullets seat easier than others in different pieces of brass. I have actually noticed this with diffferent dies, brass, calibers.....so I wonder if I need to learn to anneal? Also, is there a tool to measure neck tension?

Your unsized fired brass has inconsistent dents on the end of the case mouth from the case mouth dragging on the action on ejection.
You may not be able to see this with your eye. It is hard to measure the roundness of something but this happens.