Dude. Really? Google has all of the info you seek.
special forces
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I'm not trying to argue. Logistics is a bigger issue than liability for departments/military. Costs of outfitting and officer/soldier come into play as well.
Everyone just keeps making a point that handloads open you up to liability and you'd be instantly prosecuted. I'm just asking for one case or law that even talks about hand loads. Surely, there is at least one case of someone using handloads and a prosecutor jumping on this fact.
Everyone just keeps making a point that handloads open you up to liability and you'd be instantly prosecuted. I'm just asking for one case or law that even talks about hand loads. Surely, there is at least one case of someone using handloads and a prosecutor jumping on this fact.
Dude, surely if you speak like it's a fact, then some proof should be readily available. I'm not a lawyer, I have tried to use lexisnexis to search for information but I don't have a login.
Google just pulls up people saying that you shouldn't use handloaded ammo for self defense. Nobody has any real information other than hearsay.
Just asking if anyone here had a link to an article or any sort of case where it was brought up.
I think most of the information about Swat and Military (spec-forces) snipers using hand loads came from the old days when many of the teams were just getting started from what I recall. This would include Secret Service, FBI, and Dept like LAPD... On the Military side, the one that comes to mind is Delta aka The Unit... as well as the Military Marksmanship Unit, which I believe did at the time load ammo on the side for some of the Teams snipers back then. It was short-lived, basically because ammo manufacturers started developing great match-grade ammo with an OTM bullet and other specialty ammo. As you can recall I believe the M118 was a copy of the FGMM 168gr OTM The PD's snipers adopted the match ammo due to victorious liability for the Swat sniper/counter snipers, most of this came down from; State, County, and City attorney... the Governors, Commissioner's, and Mayor's who didn't want the State, County, and City taking any heat for bad shootings, yeah... it's deeper than that.
The Military at first had to work around the M118 with the OTM so if you older guys recall, all the original M118 had a cannelure just above the base of the case rim so it wouldn't be used in combat. Of course, later the OTM... was redesignated a none hollow point, none expanding bullet and the cannelure was removed from the cartridge case. As I said earlier, many of the rumors of reloads, fact or none- facts came from the usage; Dept, by Dept and Unit by Unit, back at the beginning of it all in the 60s, and I believe that's where the stories of reloads came from, both true and false. Just my 0.2 Cheer's
The Military at first had to work around the M118 with the OTM so if you older guys recall, all the original M118 had a cannelure just above the base of the case rim so it wouldn't be used in combat. Of course, later the OTM... was redesignated a none hollow point, none expanding bullet and the cannelure was removed from the cartridge case. As I said earlier, many of the rumors of reloads, fact or none- facts came from the usage; Dept, by Dept and Unit by Unit, back at the beginning of it all in the 60s, and I believe that's where the stories of reloads came from, both true and false. Just my 0.2 Cheer's
My 1st cousin was a sniper for several years. He only started handloading once he left the military and came home. He was Green Beret. So I d not think any Sniper has a reloading press in active duty for their missions.
Sorry. I misread your comment. The rules are readily available in every department regarding issued firearms and ammo. The military has a specific set of rules governing ammo per weapon systems as well as things like the Geneva convention rulings on ammunition and munitions. From what I have been told as of late, part of the reason departments do not allow non issued ammo has to do with litigation regarding death and or maiming due to projectiles like black talon or other whacky saw blade like pills. After all, when you shoot a bad guy the last thing you want to do it kill them. Amiright?!?!?!?
Regarding case law, that's outside of my expertise as a google attorney.
It is against Army regulation to alter ammunition. However, I may have know a fella or two that used a Lee hand press with a bullet seating die to adjust seating depth on ammo for some rifles that shot better with the bullet seated a little deeper.
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WildRose
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If they are operating outside of either law, State, or Department Policy, they also lose their qualified immunity thus, subject to lawsuits in addition to the criminal penalties.
WildRose
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Should I Use Handloads For Self Defense?
Are Handloads A Good Idea For Self-Defense? You might have the idea that you could save money or get a better quality bullet by carrying handloads instead of using factory hollow points. This gets a bit tricky. On the one hand, it was formerly a somewhat common practice and especially amongst...
aliengearholsters.com
You open yourself up to additional liability you would not otherwise have at least to the extent of the decision to charge/not to charge or to elevate a charge from manslaughter to first degree murder.
The logic is that you intended not just to stop the threat but used especially deadly ammo which you had personally loaded indicating prior planning and malice.
I know of at least one officer who in the seventies carried handloads for his .357 because he did not like the department issued ammo. He was in a shootout and one round over penetrated the subject, passed through a wall and injured an innocent woman inside the house next door. He was found guilty of aggravated assault with a firearm and served at least 12 years in the NM State Penn.
There's no telling how many successful self defense shootings involved handloads which never made a difference but with an ever growing number of leftwing anti gun DA's looking to make a name for themselves as well as liability lawyers looking to make a quick buck at your expense it's just not worth it.
Why take a risk on losing everything you have and going to prison over what would otherwise be a perfectly legitimate act of self defense?
As this question was about Snipers.. I don't think anyone that got their lights snuffed out in the wars will ever question if it was a Reloaded Bullet they got shot with.
In the USA I would go as far as to say if someone got shot by a SWAT Team member I don t think the victim would know if the bullet was seat 50K off the lands.
Now if the Officer changed ammo to say A BARNES they might get in trouble.
Everyone is Law Suit Happy these days nothing Surprises me. My Dad was a Lawyer for 63 years so Ive head it all before or close to it
In the USA I would go as far as to say if someone got shot by a SWAT Team member I don t think the victim would know if the bullet was seat 50K off the lands.
Now if the Officer changed ammo to say A BARNES they might get in trouble.
Everyone is Law Suit Happy these days nothing Surprises me. My Dad was a Lawyer for 63 years so Ive head it all before or close to it
Well, lets do a quick analysis on this one. Since you mentioned the SWAT sniper in particular, we'll focus on this.
#1, we all now wear body cameras, and that thing had better be on - especially if you are setting up for, and taking a shot. Your camera will then remain on until other units arrive (if not there already) and #2 occurs.
#2, the first thing that is done as soon as you pull the trigger - any trigger, rifle, shotgun or pistol - is that your weapon is immediately secured as soon as safety permits by another officer (usually higher ranking), so that it is preserved in exactly the condition that it was in during the shooting incident.
#3, the crime lab (in most major metro agencies), or the firearms range will then conduct a slow and thorough analysis and evaluation of the firearm and the ammunition to verify that all is within spec and as it should be functionally (ie no trigger modifications, handloads, # of rounds remaining in magazine vs rounds fired at scene).
#3.A - Unless you have fired all of the rounds in your weapon (unlikely in a rifle involved shooting), the remaining rounds would be proven to be "out of spec" in your example of being re-seated to .050" off lands - compared to department issued ammunition and the legitimacy of that ammo would be called into question. Remember, the definition of handloaded (per department policy) includes modification IN ANY WAY that changes the ammo from its original factory condition.
#4, If it is, in fact, a "righteous" shooting and all checks out with your weapon and ammunition, you are now looking at a several year process to first be cleared by the DA in your state/county, then another several year process of defending your actions in the coming civil cases - that you may or may not have qualified immunity against.
So, you tell me if there is any miniscule chance that you want to gamble your career, your ability to provide for your family, and potentially, your freedom on the chance that you get "caught" with out of spec ammunition after an officer involved shooting?
My life, my career, my freedom, and my family is not worth the extra 1/4 MOA.
So youre saying that that one bullet fired to kill that person could be proven to be out of spec once its fired? ( .050 off the lands) No thats impossible. Now you can check those others in the mag. But not that one that was fired.Not you or the DA or the lab could tell if it was.
