Some concerns about a reputable gunsmith assessments regarding my rifle

[Laelkhunter]

This was in the 90's. They were the .308 PSS (Police Sniper Special ??). Came with a bull bbl, heavy synthetic stock and no special trigger. The Dept bought 10 of them. Price paid was $550 from the local distributor. We put a Leupold Vari-X III 6.5-18 on them. They all shot really well. All but one preferred the Federal GMM loaded with the 168 Sierra HPBT Match bullet. One preferred the Remington 168 grain Match load. It shot at least as well as mine. Our Division had the "Quarter inch Club". If a member shot a quarter inch 5 shot group at 100 yards, his name would be placed on the "Quarter Inch Club" plaque. The Officer that shot the Remington Match ammo and I are the only ones whose name are on that Plaque.

 

[simone]

This was in the 90's. They were the .308 PSS (Police Sniper Special ??). Came with a bull bbl, heavy synthetic stock and no special trigger. The Dept bought 10 of them. Price paid was $550 from the local distributor. We put a Leupold Vari-X III 6.5-18 on them. They all shot really well. All but one preferred the Federal GMM loaded with the 168 Sierra HPBT Match bullet. One preferred the Remington 168 grain Match load. It shot at least as well as mine. Our Division had the "Quarter inch Club". If a member shot a quarter inch 5 shot group at 100 yards, his name would be placed on the "Quarter Inch Club" plaque. The Officer that shot the Remington Match ammo and I are the only ones whose name are on that Plaque.

That's cool, good job my friend! Too bad remingtons are not up to par to what they used to be. I would have a couple in the safe at least

 

[tobnpr]

You're dealing with a precision rifle smith, for bedding a hunting rifle (and not a 1K yard hunting rifle).
I don't understand the reference to "bolt jump"... is he referring to bolt tilt- which is the result of trigger connector pressure on a cocked bolt?
Precision target rifles are built to minimize bolt tilt- I'll usually just order a custom bolt body that will result in the desired clearances in the bolt raceway. They can also be sleeved at the back to achieve the same result. But, minimizing bolt raceway clearance to mere thousandths is a baaad idea in a hunting rifle. You want the bolt to jam up because a speck of sand or dirt gets in there?

Next- what caliber is the rifle, you didn't say? What are the sizes of the mounting screw holes? If they're #6, and you're shooting a magnum, not a bad idea to get them enlarged to #8. IMO, 60 in/lbs is heavy for #8, and unheard of for #6. Torque values are also dependent on whether the fastener is lubricated (and type of lubricant e.g. threadlocker) or dry. Lubricated screws have lower torque values. Gotta be honest, I've never heard a smith say "well, if I break it..." ***? There's no guesswork with this. Screw torque values are scientifically known and there's no reason/rationale to vary from them. I don't understand his aversion to threadlocker. Please ask him, and then post back here what he says... I'd rather use threadlocker and lower torque than a dry screw and torque the shiznit out of it.

It doesn't sound to me like he's "pushing" precision work you don't need, so good on him. Any factory rifle these days (including inexpensive ones) are capable of shooting 3/4 minute with match grade ammo so long as there's proper, stress-free fitment of receiver to stock. Bedding is always a solid idea, and I'm sure your smith will do a proper job.

 

[338 dude]

I brought my rifle for bedding to a reputate gunsmith here in my country (he is a top tier precision shooter, he won several international competitions with rifles made by his gunshop), he also produces some competition precision rifles and I can see he is a very nice guy, really passionate about his job.

I just had to get my rifle bedded into the new stock i bought but some other things popped up and i am not sure they are worth to be spent money for so i ask here

1) talley (maker of bases) said to limit the torque value for their 2 piece aluminum bases into the action to 25 in lbs. Bergara (maker of the rifle) said to torque base screws at 30 lbs so i decided to torque the bases at 30 lbs with some blue 243 loctite. The gunsmith said the bases can be torqued to 60 in lbs and, worst case scenario, he will break a screw head and he will replace it with a higher strenght one. He also suggested loctite is not necessary and said he never use it. I am a bit skeptical on this.

2) he noticed the bolt jumping when dry fired on my rifle and said he will have to take a little material off of a part of the bolt assembly because this could make every trigger pull different from the other.. again, i didn't understand and looked into it on the forum. I found out that some people say it is normal for a rem 700 clone action, someone said there could be a timing issue but almost everyone agreed that this jump is normal on an empty chamber. My smith didn't try to chamber anything and just said he will remove a little bit of material from a specific area and in 10 minutes this will be fixed.

He is a very well known gunsmith and i trust him more than i trust myself of course but i would like to understand better what my rifle could go through.

Worst case scenario i will ask him to just bed the action to the stock and after that i will try the rifle and see if It works well. Tomorrow i will also give a call to Bergara to understand what is their take on this bolt jump. My other b14 rifle does the same thing when dry fired with an empty chamber (and to a significantly less extent but also when dry fired with a fired case in the chamber) and it is a 0.3 MOA rifle with a couple factory loads so i wouldn't mess with it for sure.

Thanks!!

 

[338 dude]

Of course i listen. Carefully. On the other hand, especially in firearms industry, i have been disappointed by renowned characters so many times that i always apply a little critical thought on these kind of things.

For example. I have NEVER had any issue following torque specs and spelling loctite, why should i triple torque values and not using loctite?

And about the removing material from the action, that's something i would make it do to my rifle only if necessary and I wouls like to understand, that's why i wrote here.

Thanks for the reply anyway

Loctite and 30"# max

 

[Old Rooster]

You're dealing with a precision rifle smith, for bedding a hunting rifle (and not a 1K yard hunting rifle).
I don't understand the reference to "bolt jump"... is he referring to bolt tilt- which is the result of trigger connector pressure on a cocked bolt?
Precision target rifles are built to minimize bolt tilt- I'll usually just order a custom bolt body that will result in the desired clearances in the bolt raceway. They can also be sleeved at the back to achieve the same result. But, minimizing bolt raceway clearance to mere thousandths is a baaad idea in a hunting rifle. You want the bolt to jam up because a speck of sand or dirt gets in there?

Next- what caliber is the rifle, you didn't say? What are the sizes of the mounting screw holes? If they're #6, and you're shooting a magnum, not a bad idea to get them enlarged to #8. IMO, 60 in/lbs is heavy for #8, and unheard of for #6. Torque values are also dependent on whether the fastener is lubricated (and type of lubricant e.g. threadlocker) or dry. Lubricated screws have lower torque values. Gotta be honest, I've never heard a smith say "well, if I break it..." ***? There's no guesswork with this. Screw torque values are scientifically known and there's no reason/rationale to vary from them. I don't understand his aversion to threadlocker. Please ask him, and then post back here what he says... I'd rather use threadlocker and lower torque than a dry screw and torque the shiznit out of it.

It doesn't sound to me like he's "pushing" precision work you don't need, so good on him. Any factory rifle these days (including inexpensive ones) are capable of shooting 3/4 minute with match grade ammo so long as there's proper, stress-free fitment of receiver to stock. Bedding is always a solid idea, and I'm sure your smith will do a proper job.

It is SO COOL to have gunsmiths on the forum.Where else can you see an actual gunsmith give advice,so cool!

 

[simone]

You're dealing with a precision rifle smith, for bedding a hunting rifle (and not a 1K yard hunting rifle).
I don't understand the reference to "bolt jump"... is he referring to bolt tilt- which is the result of trigger connector pressure on a cocked bolt?
Precision target rifles are built to minimize bolt tilt- I'll usually just order a custom bolt body that will result in the desired clearances in the bolt raceway. They can also be sleeved at the back to achieve the same result. But, minimizing bolt raceway clearance to mere thousandths is a baaad idea in a hunting rifle. You want the bolt to jam up because a speck of sand or dirt gets in there?

Next- what caliber is the rifle, you didn't say? What are the sizes of the mounting screw holes? If they're #6, and you're shooting a magnum, not a bad idea to get them enlarged to #8. IMO, 60 in/lbs is heavy for #8, and unheard of for #6. Torque values are also dependent on whether the fastener is lubricated (and type of lubricant e.g. threadlocker) or dry. Lubricated screws have lower torque values. Gotta be honest, I've never heard a smith say "well, if I break it..." ***? There's no guesswork with this. Screw torque values are scientifically known and there's no reason/rationale to vary from them. I don't understand his aversion to threadlocker. Please ask him, and then post back here what he says... I'd rather use threadlocker and lower torque than a dry screw and torque the shiznit out of it.

It doesn't sound to me like he's "pushing" precision work you don't need, so good on him. Any factory rifle these days (including inexpensive ones) are capable of shooting 3/4 minute with match grade ammo so long as there's proper, stress-free fitment of receiver to stock. Bedding is always a solid idea, and I'm sure your smith will do a proper job.

Thanks for the very informative reply. Your points seem to make a lot of sense. It's a .308 so definitely not a 1k yard rifle, especially for hunting. This rifle already shot some 0.7 MOA 5 shots groups with some fsctory ammo and this was before finding out that the scope was sliding in the rings (my torque wrench is on being rezeroed exactly now in the doubt it was giving wrong values and I didn't use loctite because i was already planning to restick the rifle and hence change the placement of the scope). The two other loads i tried (always with that scope slifding issue and in a moderately windy day), were between 1.1 and 1.5 MOA. All with a not even broken in barrel so the rifle is promising accuracy wise, it shouldn't be difficult to find another or other two sub MOA loads, especially after bedding and with a properly mounted scope.

I will try hirnady sst 165 grain, nosler AB 165 grains, Fiocchi 165 gr loaded with SGK, geco express 165 grains. I am pretty confident at least one of this will be accurate enough. All these (maybe a part frok the accubonds) could give me good results up to 500 yards on animals from roes to the bigger and thougher wild boars and have decent aerodynamic (at least 0.4 G1 BC). i will eventually start handloading in a more or less near future

 

[simone]

It is SO COOL to have gunsmiths on the forum.Where else can you see an actual gunsmith give advice,so cool!

I agree 100%. Despite all the limitations and bias on forum advices, if one is able to filter the information received, he can get very good results

 

[Frog4aday]

Have the gunsmith glassbed your action & thank him for his services.
1) torque the scope bases to 24 in/lbs (perhaps 30 in/lbs max) using the blue loctite. DO NOT LET HIM TORQUE TO 60 in/lbs...that's crazy talk. Perhaps there was a communication breakdown here? Seems very odd a gunsmith would recommend something so blatantly off-base.
2) do not worry about the bolt "jump"; save your money as it won't matter a bit on your HUNTING rifle. But if he charges very little money to minimize it & you don't mind letting him fuss with it, that's ok, too. I just don't think it's an issue worth losing money over unless you are using the rifle in competitive matches.

I look forward to hearing how the rifle shoots after the bedding work is done.

 

[simone]

Have the gunsmith glassbed your action & thank him for his services.
1) torque the scope bases to 24 in/lbs (perhaps 30 in/lbs max) using the blue loctite. DO NOT LET HIM TORQUE TO 60 in/lbs...that's crazy talk. Perhaps there was a communication breakdown here? Seems very odd a gunsmith would recommend something so blatantly off-base.
2) do not worry about the bolt "jump"; save your money as it won't matter a bit on your HUNTING rifle. But if he charges very little money to minimize it & you don't mind letting him fuss with it, that's ok, too. I just don't think it's an issue worth losing money over unless you are using the rifle in competitive matches.

I look forward to hearing how the rifle shoots after the bedding work is done.

That's exactly what i will do! I bet it will shoot great, if it won't, no big deal, i will buy another rifle and sell this one to someone who will use it at closer distances! I will update you for sure

Btw i still don't understand how could he say something like that about the base mounting. For sure he is not used to break things and he know his stuff about precision shooting but that statement about torqueing more than 2 times thise bases is just absurd. Maybe he was trying to impress me with shocking numbers (which is silly) because before saying that absurdity he actually asked me which were the specs for that bases. He works on a lot of hunting rifles as well and he even produces and sells hunting rifles and hunting riflestocks, if he just torqued the hell put of every base he would have noticed a lot of issues frequently and it just doesn't make sense. Probably he was just trying to show in a goofy way who is the boss.. i don't know but when i will see him at the moment to pick up the rifle i will ask again why did he tell me that, just for curiosity and in a totally chill way

 

[simone]

A quick update. I was supposed to go tomorrow to take the rifle but the smith said he had some issues with the bedding and he wants to redo it another time. Apparently it was "full of bubbles" and he wants to fix it.
What do you think? Is getting bubbles in a synthetic stock bedding to the point to have to do the bedding again common?
***

Edit: he just told me that he got the bubbles cause he recently changed the kind of resin for bedding and probably because temperatures here in northern Italy have been a bit unpredictable, the resin "catalyzed" in am unexpected way so he will just scrape off the material and do the bedding again

 

[Frog4aday]

Maybe I'm just a jaded and skeptical person, but I wouldn't think a bubble or two in the bedding material would negatively affect the performance of the bedding in any way. Mostly a 'cosmetic' issue that you wouldn't even see unless you had the action out of the stock. I'm pretty sure the 'bubble' story is just to buy more time since he didn't get your rifle done when he said he would. That's fine, too. It happens all the time. Just odd he couldn't have said THAT instead of tossing out 'bubbles' as an explanation.

Regardless, I hope he gives you a good final product and you are happy with it upon shooting the gun.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

Yeah his statements about loctite and torque values sounded really absurd to me. I mean, 60 in lbs is A LOT for base screws and also why not to use loctite? You are not gonna remove the bases so why should it hurt to use it? It's also anti corrosive. I really don't get it.

As far as removing stuff from the action, it seems like most (if not every) remington 700 style action has some movement of the bolt when dry firing, it seems like it's pretty normal to me or at least it is not something affecting accuracy so much. But on this i could be wrong, i am not so experienced.

This ^^^ IS,.. correct !
As a former Gunsmith ( 3 Decades ) and present owner of, 2 Rem 700's, the Bolts,.. can jump when chamber empty BUT IF,..
Head spaced correctly= NO "Worries" !
All my Clients ( Hunters of,.. Montana, Colo, entire Pac NW USA, Mexico, Alaska, Mongolia and, the Yukon ) ALL wanted, degreased & Loctited,..
Bases and Rings.