So Will the .270 Win Overtake the CM's and PRC's?

[Tex_Hunter]

The 6.5 is not inherently superior to the. 277. That is not an accurate statement. It actually has more potential. It's simply lacking development. Ballisticly the larger the caliber the more potential bc you have. (in bullet weights that can reasonably be produced and fired)

I politely disagree... some calibers absolutely are inherently more efficient, the .277 isnt... its not about whether with enough time/money you can come up with one bullet that has a higher BC or not. A few manufacturers have already done this and the bullets are super long/heavy and require non-standard twist rates/throating and other considerations to run properly.

Google "Whats Wrong with 30 Caliber" by Bryan Litz, a summary of this article is posted on LRH somewhere already.

You can see this visually if you plot out a constant form factor (and by extension BC) on a scale of weight/caliber. The line intersects with commonly available heavy for caliber bullet weights for 6.5mm and 7mm projectiles (140/142gr and 175/180gr respectively) but to get a similar form factor/BC for .277 the chart intersects at 160grs which is not at all that common (at least until recently) and requires a faster than normal twist rate to properly stabilize. It's also a lot longer so we're talking custom throat, potential magazine/feeding issues, etc.

Again, this is why, even with commonly available 140 and 150gr .277cal bullets you have to run them much faster to get the same/better performance downrange. Why do you think that none of the .277 fans on here have actually compared the 270Win to a 6.5mm cartridge of similar case capacity like the PRC or 6.5-06 etc?

So yes, it can be done, but the 6.5mm does it more efficiently and with less recoil/powder burned, and if you need the "bigger is better" then you are better off stepping up to the 7mm.

 

[Tex_Hunter]

i assume that the 280 has a 1-9.25 twist in remington and 1-9.5 in ruger and winchester.

My M70 Supergrade in 280Rem is a 1:10 *barf*... but I have a 8.7 twist Bartlein #3B sitting in the corner of the shop that I'm going to have put on it at some point

The 280 Rem is what the 270 should have been... but per the usual Remington bungled the original launch, tried to course correct but only made things worse, and then walked back to the original but it was too late so then they sort of let it die on the vine.... like they did with the 6mm and the 260 and the 6.8SPC etc etc etc (dang... they are really good at this)

 

[VLD Pilot]

My M70 Supergrade in 280Rem is a 1:10 *barf*... but I have a 8.7 twist Bartlein #3B sitting in the corner of the shop that I'm going to have put on it at some point

The 280 Rem is what the 270 should have been... but per the usual Remington bungled the original launch, tried to course correct but only made things worse, and then walked back to the original but it was too late so then they sort of let it die on the vine.... like they did with the 6mm and the 260 and the 6.8SPC etc etc etc (dang... they are really good at this)

Well I'd say many other rifle companies did the same. Fast twist barrels were never a thing of the past but more the present and even faster in our future. In fact with lathe turned solids for ELR, you'll see 6/7 twist barrels soon for 30/338s. 100 years ago nobody needed a fast twist barrel for bullets that never existed to use in them.

 

[Lou270]

I don't see why fast twist 270 would be a big deal even though most are 1-10. There are plenty of 22/243 bullets that only work in faster than standard twist and it has not caused problems with the old 22/250 243 shooter etc. fast twist 270, recoils like a 6.5, hits like a 7mm

 

[montana west]

Well I'd say many other rifle companies did the same. Fast twist barrels were never a thing of the past but more the present and even faster in our future. In fact with lathe turned solids for ELR, you'll see 6/7 twist barrels soon for 30/338s. 100 years ago nobody needed a fast twist barrel for bullets that never existed to use in them.

280 does not com in a 1-10 the are 1-9.25 unless acustom bbl and then mbbe a 1-10. I have no idea but mabe my 280 is a 1-10 because it is a usec custom bbl but it is sure accurate.

 

[montana west]

for the facts yes the 6.5 is as accurate as anything with the right push.IN th early 30's Mr Newton designes the perfect long Ranger it was called the 6.5 Newton and many years ahead of his time also he had a 35 newton which = the 358 Norma without the belt.. But I like the belt better for better headspace. anaway you cannot improve the 270 winchester it is the best and the short mag is no better. no short mag will = the 2.5" mags.. facts are facts the best long ranger is the 264 win mag ......

 

[ButterBean]

went in to Academy Sports today looking for some Odds and Ends, All the gun stores up here are bare and most of the owners say everything is hard to get, anyway as always I go thru the guns and Ammo, The Ammo shelves were bare save for the old standbys,243, 25-06, 270 and 308, no 30-06 to be seen, So with all of the discussion lately about the demise of the 270 , 30-06 and 308 to the 6.5 C^^^^^^^r, I guess it rings true....... When it gets tough you'll be able to find ammo for them anywhere

 

[Starlite]

The .270 win is a classic. That's undisputable. Whether it gets bigger than it's history is yet to be seen. Doesn't really matter because it's certainly filled as many a hunters tags as any cartridge out there. Any company that offers a faster barrel will bring some ammo manufacturers forward offering a few heavier low drag bullet options. I'm not expecting alot but a few extras will give the .270 win some new founded life.

I think this is one of the reasons that Sig Sauer has launched the 277 fury (with also the 6.5(x2) and 308).
This "hype" keeps the 270 alive but also allows easy switching of barrel. 6.5CM today and 270Win tomorrow.
for me, it's just therapy to be able to experience and explore my new 270Win Savage Overwatch. Ive now got my hands on 4 brands of brass. 3 brands of primers. 5 powders. 4 different weight bullets of 4 types. Should keep busy TIL hunting season... well if this heatwave ends soon. Just not going to the range at 40*C

 

[Tex_Hunter]

280 does not com in a 1-10 the are 1-9.25 unless acustom bbl and then mbbe a 1-10. I have no idea but mabe my 280 is a 1-10 because it is a usec custom bbl but it is sure accurate.

Straight from Winchester

 

[VLD Pilot]

I had a Browning BAR in a .280 that had a 10 twist. It was the Gen I BAR.

 

[stx]

glad you posted this Tex_Hunter......the 10 twist has kept me from buying a Win in 280.....like so many others, it makes no sense!

 

[TX Badger]

I politely disagree... some calibers absolutely are inherently more efficient, the .277 isnt... its not about whether with enough time/money you can come up with one bullet that has a higher BC or not. A few manufacturers have already done this and the bullets are super long/heavy and require non-standard twist rates/throating and other considerations to run properly.

Google "Whats Wrong with 30 Caliber" by Bryan Litz, a summary of this article is posted on LRH somewhere already.

You can see this visually if you plot out a constant form factor (and by extension BC) on a scale of weight/caliber. The line intersects with commonly available heavy for caliber bullet weights for 6.5mm and 7mm projectiles (140/142gr and 175/180gr respectively) but to get a similar form factor/BC for .277 the chart intersects at 160grs which is not at all that common (at least until recently) and requires a faster than normal twist rate to properly stabilize. It's also a lot longer so we're talking custom throat, potential magazine/feeding issues, etc.

Again, this is why, even with commonly available 140 and 150gr .277cal bullets you have to run them much faster to get the same/better performance downrange. Why do you think that none of the .277 fans on here have actually compared the 270Win to a 6.5mm cartridge of similar case capacity like the PRC or 6.5-06 etc?

So yes, it can be done, but the 6.5mm does it more efficiently and with less recoil/powder burned, and if you need the "bigger is better" then you are better off stepping up to the 7mm.

If you are only considering what is commonly avail., you are correct. If you hamstring the .277 with a 1:10 then yes. If you want to compare a sammi spec chamber from the 30s to something more modern then yes, a long heavy for caliber bullet can be an issue. Maybe we are just differing on the wording. When I saw "inherently" I read that as you saying there is factual, statistical, scientific reasons that the 6.5 has better ballistic POTENTIAL than a larger .277 caliber. It's a pet peeve of mine when people claim certain calibers have special qualities that ignore the obvious linear relationship between diameter and potential BC.

Thanks for pointing to the Litz article I had not read that in years. It was good to revisit even if the information is a little outdated regarding the heaviest bullets offered. In his critique of the 30 cal bullets he doesn't say anything about them having inherently lower bcs. The problems are many. From the heavy sierras are running the same nose and boat tail as the 155s and therefore have a crazy long bearing surface that makes a mess of things. The assortment at that time actually being to light. To how much recoil is generated if you run true heavy 30s at high velocity.

If I had the time and inclination I would put together a real world graph of what is realistically possible, but here is the short hand.

Caliber, heavy commercially avail bullet weight, G7 BC

.223 90gr .274
.243 115gr .291
.257 131gr .340
.264 156gr .347
.277 170gr .339
.284 195gr .387
.308 245gr .413
.338 300gr .421
.375 407gr .532
50 750gr 1.21 G1 bc is all that avail.

I can hear people saying that the .277 is the weakling here. I would say if you look at the increase in bullet diameter and compare it to the increase in bullet weight, you can see that the .277 is still a little underweight even at 170gr in this elite class. Regardless, the math/science is clear. As diameter goes up BC potential does too. Nothing mystical happens at any specific caliber to disprove this. People said the same thing about the .257 until a few years ago when it got a little love and now it falls right in line with other top tier performers.

 

[montana west]

Most Hunters want a gun to go bang-- and the animal drops to the ground. no trailing dead on arrival . they don't wont to use a lazer and a 30 power glass to find the animal just something under 400 yards max. thus the 270 is good for 95 percent of all north american game a little behind the 280 and the 06. but for sure enough gun to do the job.

 

[Nomosendero]

As can be said of MANY cartridges used today with the same requirements.