Shoulder growing problem

[6pakzak]

Getting on a kick of annealing that prevents less force instead of sayin less work hardening. Work harding decreases the life of the case. I never noticed less force on annealed cases

Take a pair of pliers and bend the neck of a annealed case and do the same to a case that is not annealed, there will be a difference in force.

 

[MLN1963]

Ahhh yeah, the neck for sure IF you oversize the case, the shoulder get moved forward a bit if you do it too fast. The shoulder/body junction is being formed and the brass flows up.. I see that when I gauge them. There's clearance between the shoulder in the die and the case shoulder so it has room to, well, move.

If you have clearance between shoulder of the brass and shoulder of the sizing die you aren't bumping your shoulders back. The shoulder will continue to move forward, get longer as it's squeezed, until you have the die adjusted down enough for it to start pushing the shoulder back.

Case walls thin with use. You see this via case length growing. It's not necessarily over sizing the brass. Yes, if you oversized the brass, by pushing the shoulder back too much it will lengthen too. This is why you check your shoulder bump length. If you trim the brass length to length on brass with the shoulder pushed too far back it's going to end up on the short size when sized properly. The brass is trapped/contained on all sides except the neck end. It has to flow somewhere, and that's the only place it can go as the die is squeezing it into the shape of the die.

Let me ask you a question. What are the steps of your brass preparation?

 

[milboltnut]

MLN 1963
you don't need to know that ! Best if you figure that way on your own.

 

[milboltnut]

If you have clearance between shoulder of the brass and shoulder of the sizing die you aren't bumping your shoulders back. The shoulder will continue to move forward, get longer as it's squeezed, until you have the die adjusted down enough for it to start pushing the shoulder back.

Case walls thin with use. You see this via case length growing. It's not necessarily over sizing the brass. Yes, if you oversized the brass, by pushing the shoulder back too much it will lengthen too. This is why you check your shoulder bump length. If you trim the brass length to length on brass with the shoulder pushed too far back it's going to end up on the short size when sized properly. The brass is trapped/contained on all sides except the neck end. It has to flow somewhere, and that's the only place it can go as the die is squeezing it into the shape of the die.

Let me ask you a question. What are the steps of your brass preparation?

and my explanation is most likely why he isn't getting consistent shoulder setback. The title of this thread is Shoulder Growing problem and it was an issue with his collet die.

 

[milboltnut]

The problem was the adjustment on the collet die, that's where the shoulder would grow but guys on here helped me figure it out, thanks guys. I'm less than a half turn in now after touching shell plate, I was looking at the instructions and it said to turn in 2 turns for none Lee presses, like their all the same, of course I was no where near that to begin with, probably would pop the die if I was.

and there it is. So Zak what's the problem now ? Now you're dealing with your FL die ?

This thread is getting out of hand here ! Your initial issue was with the collet die now you're talking about your FL die adjustment. Or you were just trying it my way to bump ?

 

[MLN1963]

MLN 1963
you don't need to know that ! Best if you figure that way on your own.

I know how I do it.

Do you use a full length sizing die with expander ball?

 

[MLN1963]

Take a pair of pliers and bend the neck of a annealed case and do the same to a case that is not annealed, there will be a difference in force.

Yes there will, if it's been annealed properly!

 

[6pakzak]

and my explanation is most likely why he isn't getting consistent shoulder setback. The title of this thread is Shoulder Growing problem and it was an issue with his collet die.

Your explanation had nothing to do with the problem, so Sir you are totally incorrect, I stated that the problem was after the collet die to begin with, in fact I said just using the collet and nothing else so how could the problem be with a die that I'm not even using.

 

[6pakzak]

and there it is. So Zak what's the problem now ? Now you're dealing with your FL die ?

This thread is getting out of hand here ! Your initial issue was with the collet die now you're talking about your FL die adjustment. Or you were just trying it my way to bump ?

If you want to hold your shell in your die all day long that is fine, it's a free country, (for now anyways), you said try it, you brought up your technique which I disagree with, so I tried it and didn't find any merit to it personally, what's the problem, you brought it up not me, if you bring up a technique expect people to agree or disagree and maybe other people can learn and we can dispell some myths. Correct me if I'm wrong but now you're saying the force needed to size annealed brass and not annealed is the same?

 

[milboltnut]

I haven't seen a difference in sizing annealed or not. Like I said you're on your own, so it's your collet die that's the problem, ok, take care.

 

[MLN1963]

I don't think I can feel much if any difference on an annealed and not annealed case on the handle of the press. But I can tell you without a doubt that the spring back and case length are different on an annealed case. Squeezing the neck with a pliers yes. Drop it on the floor yes.

The Tuesday I sized some cases. I had forgot to anneal this batch and ended up shooting them for some things I was trying. I took a fired case, not annealed, and sized it (that made twice) to try a different method of finding the lands I had read about. When I chambered it I noticed it was tight so I measured it. It was .003" longer than annealed cases. Remembering this thread I lubed it and sized again holding the size for four seconds, same length. Turned it and sized it again holding for 4 seconds. No change. I annealed it, sized it my way and measured it again. It was normal size again. I will give mil this one, I couldn't feel a difference even though it was obviously harder than an annealed case. Sample size one.

 

[6pakzak]

I haven't seen a difference in sizing annealed or not. Like I said you're on your own, so it's your collet die that's the problem, ok, take care.

I appreciate you trying to solve my issue, I had the issue after the collet die, maybe I didn't explain that well enough and yes I tried your bumping method just to see what would happen.

 

[6pakzak]

I appreciate you trying to solve my issue, I had the issue after the collet die, maybe I didn't explain that well enough and yes I tried your bumping method just to see what would happen.

I will say that the longer pressure is held on a metal to bend it the more it will bend, I'm guilty of letting my case sit in the collet die for about 4 seconds, I'm just thinking the longer it sits under pressure the more it will get to where I want it.

 

[WildRose]

This is exactly what should happen in terms of body sizing an annealed vs. un-annealed case due to spring back with un-annealed case. The annealed case allows the case to be reformed with less force and deflection due to it's softened (by annealing) state.

Softer brass also has less spring back hence the more malleability.