And this is why I love this site... Thanks for the tip!!! If I could find a savage action would that be a better start? The 1200 stillers are a little pricey for me!
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Shilen vs er shaw
- Thread starter timmymic
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And this is why I love this site... Thanks for the tip!!! If I could find a savage action would that be a better start? The 1200 stillers are a little pricey for me!
sinarms
Well-Known Member
What Stiller action are you looking for at $1200 that a a Remington or Savage can Match? The Tac30/300 and predator are great actions and they sell for $950. Savage is good to build off of too, it all depends on what your goal is and how big your budget is decide that and then figure out what you can build.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Here we go with the same ole crap.......Why can't people just let the man have a Remington 700 without some other supporter trying to change his mind? Every **** time...
Somehow a thread will always get de-railed into a 700 vs ______ contest.... If he wants a 700, let him have a 700.
It comes down to this.....To get true long-range performance and repeatability out of ANY gun, you will have to true the action. Period. Dot. The rest of the process is rhetoric from there.
Alot of people of people don't think I know anything about anything, on here, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Am I a 50 year old seasoned big game hunter....No. But I'm not new to the machining world, or custom rifles. And for someone to tell me that any 1 action (non-custom) is better than the other b/c it doesn't need any trueing done to it before final fitment, is full of crap. Sure, you can fit one up without trueing the threads, trueing the reciever and bolt face, and properly headspacing by fitting the recoil lug....Just look at the factory built rifles and how bad they shoot compared to a custom sticking them in 1 hole... And you can also mount it into the stock without bedding the action, lug, and floating the barrel.......But it will NEVER shoot to it's fullest potential, and you will have just wasted alot of money, b/c you will be dissatisfied, and will have to pay the smith to pull it back down, turn everything, and blueprint it, then bed & float and put it all back together the RIGHT way.
Just my $0.02, but if you're gonna go custom, why not do it right the first time?
str8shoot
Well-Known Member
I don't see how you're saving money by buying a prefit for a Rem700. Shilen charges $200 to thread and chamber your barrel. Plus, you still have to pay a smith to get it installed.
You could take a contoured blank to a smith and get it threaded, chambered and installed for about $225 without truing. I understand why people get prefits for Savages, they can do the barrel change themselves. With their floating bolt head they will usually shoot well without any truing.
There is no way I would spend the money on a match grade barrel for a Rem700 without spending the money to get my action trued and squared. I did a custom on a Rem 700 and used a local smith. He only charged me $375 for truing, chambering, installing the barrel, and bedding.
A 6mmbr should give you a few thousand rounds of top grade accuracy. If you want top grade accuracy, money for truing isn't that much over the life of a barrel.
You could take a contoured blank to a smith and get it threaded, chambered and installed for about $225 without truing. I understand why people get prefits for Savages, they can do the barrel change themselves. With their floating bolt head they will usually shoot well without any truing.
There is no way I would spend the money on a match grade barrel for a Rem700 without spending the money to get my action trued and squared. I did a custom on a Rem 700 and used a local smith. He only charged me $375 for truing, chambering, installing the barrel, and bedding.
A 6mmbr should give you a few thousand rounds of top grade accuracy. If you want top grade accuracy, money for truing isn't that much over the life of a barrel.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Same here Str8Shooter. My smith gets deals on barrels through Douglas, b/c he sells so many of them, and has for so many years. He can get a XX-Match grade Douglas 5-groove, trued action, chambered, bedded, floated, everything fitted and blueprinted for around $750-850, including the barrel blank. With you providing the action, and other stuff.
westcliffe01
Well-Known Member
A Savage target action is about $450 in stainless steel, has a floating bolt head so the bolt does not need trueing and the general consensus is that there is nothing to be gained by trueing a Savage action. The fact that you can screw on a finished machined $330 prefit Shilen Select match barrel on a Savage is the entire reason the pre-fit market exists.
Now if you go to a different type of receiver, like a Remington, which does not have a floating bolt head and which is made with sloppy tolerances, yes, standardization basically goes out the window. People can hate on the Remington discussion all they like, but custom rifle smiths will admit that customers will save money by directly buying a custom precision receiver like a Stiller. At the same time, the smith will make less money on the deal, since the Stiller is a pass through item, vs direct labor for trueing the Rem 700 action + custom fitting the barrel tenon. On the other hand, the smith can produce rifles faster with a Stiller and buy in finished barrels and can have the receiver personalized for his business.
What you should do is up to you. There are many writers on this very forum who advocate the Savage / Stevens action for low budget long range builds and I agree. I have not been able to find a smith in my region (SE MI) to work on my Rem 700 project within a reasonable amount of time and for (what I consider to be) a reasonable cost. I already own the rifle, which is why I want to use it.
If you have a home shop and want to do your own work, then for sure a Rem 700 may be a good base to work from, but not when you are spending "real money" paying someone else. If instead you buy a Stiller or a Pierce Engineering receiver, then it will always have a higher resale value than any "trued" Remington 700 receiver, regardless of how much money you spend to have it trued. Similar to dropping a big V8 under the hood of an S10, you will still get S10 money for it if you sell, even if it will keep up with a Ferarri.
Now if you go to a different type of receiver, like a Remington, which does not have a floating bolt head and which is made with sloppy tolerances, yes, standardization basically goes out the window. People can hate on the Remington discussion all they like, but custom rifle smiths will admit that customers will save money by directly buying a custom precision receiver like a Stiller. At the same time, the smith will make less money on the deal, since the Stiller is a pass through item, vs direct labor for trueing the Rem 700 action + custom fitting the barrel tenon. On the other hand, the smith can produce rifles faster with a Stiller and buy in finished barrels and can have the receiver personalized for his business.
What you should do is up to you. There are many writers on this very forum who advocate the Savage / Stevens action for low budget long range builds and I agree. I have not been able to find a smith in my region (SE MI) to work on my Rem 700 project within a reasonable amount of time and for (what I consider to be) a reasonable cost. I already own the rifle, which is why I want to use it.
If you have a home shop and want to do your own work, then for sure a Rem 700 may be a good base to work from, but not when you are spending "real money" paying someone else. If instead you buy a Stiller or a Pierce Engineering receiver, then it will always have a higher resale value than any "trued" Remington 700 receiver, regardless of how much money you spend to have it trued. Similar to dropping a big V8 under the hood of an S10, you will still get S10 money for it if you sell, even if it will keep up with a Ferarri.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
No doubt that custom actions are better than factory produced ones. Won't argue there at all. But not everyone has the money to drop $1000+ on just the action. So you have to look at it from that standpoint, as well.
I won't tell you Savages are bad actions, but I do not like them. That is just my personal preferences, just like you prefer the Savages over the 700. Same difference.
I won't tell you Savages are bad actions, but I do not like them. That is just my personal preferences, just like you prefer the Savages over the 700. Same difference.
-MY Brothers 264 shilen barrel shot bigger groups than the remington barrel he had taken off. my 6mm br with on an untrued rem 700 - 8 twist 28" krieger was more than worth the wait.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Pretty much. That's about average money you'll spend on a used 700 action + smith work, so $550 you should be ahead of the game. Then it's just a trigger, barrel & barrel work (I would buy a blank then have your smith chamber & thread it), then your stock, have it bedded & barrel trued, and then your trigger, and bottom metal, and you'll be set.
westcliffe01
Well-Known Member
MudRunner2005, you make a lot of assumptions. The first bolt gun I bought was a Rem 700. So was the second one. The feel of the Remington 700 is without a doubt superior to the feel of any Savage action.
Having said that, I have to be realistic about the performance of the "average" Rem 700 action. My own long action "classic" model 700 has been a perfect example of a rifle that started close to $800 and meanwhile has an added investment of another $350 to replace the trigger and stock and it still is at best a 1.5-2.0 MOA rifle.
Now I am at the point where I WILL replace the barrel and WILL have to accurize the receiver, since any other use of this hardware is pointless. If I had no conscience, I could simply sell it to some unsuspecting person, who might or might now be satisfied with its performance, take the money and move on. Given that I know that this equipment is not working right, I am not inclined to take advantage of someone else who may not know better.
I recently fitted a Shilen barrel to my Savage 12. Prior to the barrel swap, I had not been required to invest a single dime in that rifle, which cost me less than $800 for a stainless action/barrel and laminated stock and shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards. The barrel swap cost me $330 for the match barrel, less $150 that I got for the original varmint profile barrel thus $180 out of pocket. I can now shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards with 95gr and 105gr VLD's which was not possible prior.
Lets compare that scenario to the Remington: It got a $100 Shilen trigger since that was the least expensive option to get the trigger weight down from about 8lb to a reasonable 2lb. A gunsmith job on the factory trigger typically costs $125+ in addition to the cost of shipping the barreled action 2 ways. I could have bedded the factory walnut stock, but was nervous about that being my first bolt action bedding job, so I bought a laminated replacement. Lets just assume that for $50 I could have pillar bedded it instead.
A trueing job is going to cost about $210 for the action (I will use Southern Percision Rifles as a price benchmark). One ends up in many cases with a non specific thread diameter, which means that the barrel tenon will always have to be custom fitted. Some smiths (who have a horrendous lead time) recut the barrel thread to a defined size and check it with a custom thread gauge. Now buy your desired blank (or perhaps your smith has blanks). A Krieger blank at SPR is listed as $315, same for Rock Creek. Now it will cost an additional $250 for barrel fitting.
So lets do the math: I start with a $800 Rifle and add $100 for the trigger, $50 for bedding, $210 for truing, $315 for blank and $250 for barrel fitting. Thats $1725. And its still a Remington.
By comparison, if I go straight to Shilen, I can get a complete barreled action as follows:
Barrel Nut System $1500
Comes with DGR or DGV action and .300" pinned recoil lug, select match barrel of your choice contour, chamber and twist, finish length 26" or shorter, barrel nut, installed, glass peen finish and base.
For $200 you get a trigger, so coming in at $1700.
For the Remington case, what I really get is highly dependent on the skill of my smith and is very likely to be non standard. By comparison, Shilen could make a prefit for their own action with no problem because it is precice and to known dimensions.
I don't have a solution yet for my own case. I may simply end up doing the work myself. I have access to some machine tools and might just have to buy the needed threading tools.
Having said that, I have to be realistic about the performance of the "average" Rem 700 action. My own long action "classic" model 700 has been a perfect example of a rifle that started close to $800 and meanwhile has an added investment of another $350 to replace the trigger and stock and it still is at best a 1.5-2.0 MOA rifle.
Now I am at the point where I WILL replace the barrel and WILL have to accurize the receiver, since any other use of this hardware is pointless. If I had no conscience, I could simply sell it to some unsuspecting person, who might or might now be satisfied with its performance, take the money and move on. Given that I know that this equipment is not working right, I am not inclined to take advantage of someone else who may not know better.
I recently fitted a Shilen barrel to my Savage 12. Prior to the barrel swap, I had not been required to invest a single dime in that rifle, which cost me less than $800 for a stainless action/barrel and laminated stock and shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards. The barrel swap cost me $330 for the match barrel, less $150 that I got for the original varmint profile barrel thus $180 out of pocket. I can now shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards with 95gr and 105gr VLD's which was not possible prior.
Lets compare that scenario to the Remington: It got a $100 Shilen trigger since that was the least expensive option to get the trigger weight down from about 8lb to a reasonable 2lb. A gunsmith job on the factory trigger typically costs $125+ in addition to the cost of shipping the barreled action 2 ways. I could have bedded the factory walnut stock, but was nervous about that being my first bolt action bedding job, so I bought a laminated replacement. Lets just assume that for $50 I could have pillar bedded it instead.
A trueing job is going to cost about $210 for the action (I will use Southern Percision Rifles as a price benchmark). One ends up in many cases with a non specific thread diameter, which means that the barrel tenon will always have to be custom fitted. Some smiths (who have a horrendous lead time) recut the barrel thread to a defined size and check it with a custom thread gauge. Now buy your desired blank (or perhaps your smith has blanks). A Krieger blank at SPR is listed as $315, same for Rock Creek. Now it will cost an additional $250 for barrel fitting.
So lets do the math: I start with a $800 Rifle and add $100 for the trigger, $50 for bedding, $210 for truing, $315 for blank and $250 for barrel fitting. Thats $1725. And its still a Remington.
By comparison, if I go straight to Shilen, I can get a complete barreled action as follows:
Barrel Nut System $1500
Comes with DGR or DGV action and .300" pinned recoil lug, select match barrel of your choice contour, chamber and twist, finish length 26" or shorter, barrel nut, installed, glass peen finish and base.
For $200 you get a trigger, so coming in at $1700.
For the Remington case, what I really get is highly dependent on the skill of my smith and is very likely to be non standard. By comparison, Shilen could make a prefit for their own action with no problem because it is precice and to known dimensions.
I don't have a solution yet for my own case. I may simply end up doing the work myself. I have access to some machine tools and might just have to buy the needed threading tools.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Assumptions? I'm 100% sure you said you preferred the Savage over the 700.....Am I incorrect? If so, please show me where I assumed anything else...
All I said was you preferred 1 over the other, which happens to be the opposite of me. Did I misinterpret?
I know you have 700 rifles, I don't doubt that you like 700's, but you have said time and time again that you prefer the Savage over the 700.
Once again, I'm NOT going to get into a ****ing match with anyone, but don't put words in my mouth saying I assumed anything.
All I said was you preferred 1 over the other, which happens to be the opposite of me. Did I misinterpret?
I know you have 700 rifles, I don't doubt that you like 700's, but you have said time and time again that you prefer the Savage over the 700.
Once again, I'm NOT going to get into a ****ing match with anyone, but don't put words in my mouth saying I assumed anything.
westcliffe01
Well-Known Member
It will cost on average $500 more to do the same thing with a Rem 700 compared to what it will with a Savage (to shoot equally). Thats what my point is. Multiply $500 by several rifles and it becomes an affordability issue. You are the guy who is always going on about what you can't afford.
Were talking $210 + $250 + $315 =$775 vs $330 for a Savage. So I was a little out @ $445 but I'm sure that shipping and waiting several months is worth something too.
Were talking $210 + $250 + $315 =$775 vs $330 for a Savage. So I was a little out @ $445 but I'm sure that shipping and waiting several months is worth something too.
