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Seating Long Until Ready for Use
- Thread starter med358-boise
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lancetkenyon
Well-Known Member
I think it depends on brass prep. Once fired, correct neck tension, and a bit of carbon left in the neck (not wet tumbled with steel pins), I have not seen any issues with ammo loaded and stored for years. I have 7RM ammo loaded 6-7 years ago that shoots the same velocity as it did when fresh. Same with 28 Nos, 6.5SLR, .223. Other than that, for a lot of my ammo, 200 rounds just doesn't stay unfired for long enough to notice a difference. But I do rotate the stock. When I reload 100-200 pieces, they go to the bottom of the stack.
New brass may be a different story. But again...Hard to keep from shooting new brass loads. I want to get them formed to my chamber as soon as possible.
New brass may be a different story. But again...Hard to keep from shooting new brass loads. I want to get them formed to my chamber as soon as possible.
I have been reloading for over 50 years, and have never experienced any sort of cold weld. Some of the loads I have fired are over 8 yrs old. Not saying it can't happen, just hasn't happened to me.
SemperFi
There is something to remember if you like to load up a case guard 100 full at a time, seat very long, and then seat bullets from year to year as needed.
I experienced a problem with this approach when I used brass that had been fired in a test rifle. The brass had a "Memory" of that chamber, and over time, the loaded brass started to "normalize," expanding back out to the size of the original chamber.
As the necks opened up over time, the bullets could be easily pushed back in the case.
I have seen this twice in my life, all with brass that was once fired in a Test rifle. I did not anneal the brass, and I used a standard Full-Length sizer with an expander ball when sizing the brass.
Regarding Cold Welding, I never saw this when I lived in the dry Western Climates. When I moved back South, I saw cold welding three times, two of my own and one with my hunting partner. We had a round loaded with N133, N135, and N140 when the cold welding happened.
The cold welding was so bad with my 223 AI loaded with N135, it looked like I had creeping crud coming out of the case neck up the bullet shank. I pulled the bullets and was amazed at how many rounds had what looked like snot balls attached to the base of the bullet, and the powder inside the case had changed size, shape and color. All the loaded rounds were discarded. The ammo had been loaded for 5-7 years in the 223 AI.
For some rifles, I still Pre-Load long, and by long I mean the longest length that will fit in a case guard 100, then seat enough bullets for this year's hunting season.
It is prudent to keep your ammo "fresh". I have a gut feeling that some powders are more prone to the cold welding than others based on their deterrent coating, but this is a WAG on my part since I have fired a ton of ammo that has been loaded for 40 years when I lived out West.
This subject is touched upon once in a great while, and many of us would love to know more. In my case, I can only guess that the powder residue from the previous firing reacted over time with the new powder charge. So, would washing the fired cases with Stainless steel pins and detergent detur cold welding? Also, could cold welding be eliminated with the Nosler Black Lubaloy bullets marketed with the Combined Technology name, seems plausable?''
Humidity, powder residue from previously fired case, the brand of powder, and alloy content of both the brass case and bullet are all involved. It is hard to make generalizations with all these factors involved.
I experienced a problem with this approach when I used brass that had been fired in a test rifle. The brass had a "Memory" of that chamber, and over time, the loaded brass started to "normalize," expanding back out to the size of the original chamber.
As the necks opened up over time, the bullets could be easily pushed back in the case.
I have seen this twice in my life, all with brass that was once fired in a Test rifle. I did not anneal the brass, and I used a standard Full-Length sizer with an expander ball when sizing the brass.
Regarding Cold Welding, I never saw this when I lived in the dry Western Climates. When I moved back South, I saw cold welding three times, two of my own and one with my hunting partner. We had a round loaded with N133, N135, and N140 when the cold welding happened.
The cold welding was so bad with my 223 AI loaded with N135, it looked like I had creeping crud coming out of the case neck up the bullet shank. I pulled the bullets and was amazed at how many rounds had what looked like snot balls attached to the base of the bullet, and the powder inside the case had changed size, shape and color. All the loaded rounds were discarded. The ammo had been loaded for 5-7 years in the 223 AI.
For some rifles, I still Pre-Load long, and by long I mean the longest length that will fit in a case guard 100, then seat enough bullets for this year's hunting season.
It is prudent to keep your ammo "fresh". I have a gut feeling that some powders are more prone to the cold welding than others based on their deterrent coating, but this is a WAG on my part since I have fired a ton of ammo that has been loaded for 40 years when I lived out West.
This subject is touched upon once in a great while, and many of us would love to know more. In my case, I can only guess that the powder residue from the previous firing reacted over time with the new powder charge. So, would washing the fired cases with Stainless steel pins and detergent detur cold welding? Also, could cold welding be eliminated with the Nosler Black Lubaloy bullets marketed with the Combined Technology name, seems plausable?''
Humidity, powder residue from previously fired case, the brand of powder, and alloy content of both the brass case and bullet are all involved. It is hard to make generalizations with all these factors involved.
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When I started reloading, 1971 I found a sweet load for my Rem700 30-06 that shot bug holes at 150yds. So I accumulated a ton of components and proceeded to load 990 rounds. Since 1971 I've shot 272 of them. I know because I have them in 100rd MTM boxes so it's easy to keep track. Every year I shoot one or two at a target to verify zero then hopefully one or two at deer. I've had to replace scopes twice so maybe 20 or so to zero the new scope. I must be lucky or something, I've never noticed any of the symptoms of cold weld " YET ". They still shoot bug holes. When I first read about cold weld several years ago I started taking random rounds, pulling bullets. they were a little tight but not what I would say required gorilla arms. Then I would neck size and put them back together. I used 165gr Nosler partitions and never fired Remington brass. Perhaps the alloy formulation of the bullet jackets and the cases were more forgiving back then.
Jeff Heeg osoh
Well-Known Member
In regards to the questions on the original post and some of the feedback.
Is seating long on a big batch of ammo necessary?
The only time I would consider it is when the demand for accuracy is extremely high in relation to ammo cost and time available to load batches prior to an event or hunting.
Accuracy - most will never see the difference, when say a bullet that is welded/corroded a little to the case neck the powder will build a little more pressure before the bullet releases into the chamber. The effects will be no different then doing load development where different pressures show a slightly different impact point versus aiming point. In most short to moderate distances the shooter will not acknowledge the impact shift on an animal or target because of winds, target movement and or shooting skills. And honestly in a hunting scenario you still put a great shot on the animal because the slight shift or the flyer round wasn't that far off of the intended aim point but -> When pushing to the extreme distances, and a solid shooting platform the shooter will see a shift or flyer here again it can be blamed on reloading skills, the ammo its self or the wind. But for those who are very particular with everything they will see the bullets impact shift on say a steel plate at the extreme distances that may cause a loss in a score in competition. In our case it can be very noticeable at 2000 yards and beyond when we are shooting the 375s & 416s and they are pushing us out to 4200.
Ammo cost - I like doing this with the big gun just because the dang rounds are so expensive even with reloading, when you figure the time, bullets, powder, primer and every old round fired down the barrel to get the old brass back in order with the rest you have barrel wear and rechambering that every round chisels at before its time for another barrel. My small guns heck we just have fun shooting them up somewhere and go back to reloading.
The correct way of seating long
Here's what some have not taken in consideration when they did this' years back I seen a good shooter struggling with blowing primers while we were shooting a course at Fort McCoy. He forgot to finish seating his rounds.
As stated I have only used the two step seating on my 338LM and the 416 Warner I load the rounds during the first phase so that they are around a 100 thousands too long - so they are not fully seated into the case enough. Why this is important? Because it is impossible for me to close the bolt on my rifle if I accidentally forgot to finish seating or grabbed the wrong batch. They will be to long to load in the rifle and in turn will save any issues of over pressure and blowing up a gun. Seating them just a few thou long and forgetting to finish is not enough and will cause serious injury or damage as mentioned earlier with what I witnessed at Fort McCoy with the shooter being lucky that only his primers were blowing right out of the brass it could of been worse.
Does this short term cold welding thing really cause any issues?
Only if your pushing or demanding a lot out of the system - most don't even see the effects because of the distance demands and all I mentioned above also the brass will be fine unless there are other contributing situations that triggered damage.
Osoh
JH
Is seating long on a big batch of ammo necessary?
The only time I would consider it is when the demand for accuracy is extremely high in relation to ammo cost and time available to load batches prior to an event or hunting.
Accuracy - most will never see the difference, when say a bullet that is welded/corroded a little to the case neck the powder will build a little more pressure before the bullet releases into the chamber. The effects will be no different then doing load development where different pressures show a slightly different impact point versus aiming point. In most short to moderate distances the shooter will not acknowledge the impact shift on an animal or target because of winds, target movement and or shooting skills. And honestly in a hunting scenario you still put a great shot on the animal because the slight shift or the flyer round wasn't that far off of the intended aim point but -> When pushing to the extreme distances, and a solid shooting platform the shooter will see a shift or flyer here again it can be blamed on reloading skills, the ammo its self or the wind. But for those who are very particular with everything they will see the bullets impact shift on say a steel plate at the extreme distances that may cause a loss in a score in competition. In our case it can be very noticeable at 2000 yards and beyond when we are shooting the 375s & 416s and they are pushing us out to 4200.
Ammo cost - I like doing this with the big gun just because the dang rounds are so expensive even with reloading, when you figure the time, bullets, powder, primer and every old round fired down the barrel to get the old brass back in order with the rest you have barrel wear and rechambering that every round chisels at before its time for another barrel. My small guns heck we just have fun shooting them up somewhere and go back to reloading.
The correct way of seating long
Here's what some have not taken in consideration when they did this' years back I seen a good shooter struggling with blowing primers while we were shooting a course at Fort McCoy. He forgot to finish seating his rounds.
As stated I have only used the two step seating on my 338LM and the 416 Warner I load the rounds during the first phase so that they are around a 100 thousands too long - so they are not fully seated into the case enough. Why this is important? Because it is impossible for me to close the bolt on my rifle if I accidentally forgot to finish seating or grabbed the wrong batch. They will be to long to load in the rifle and in turn will save any issues of over pressure and blowing up a gun. Seating them just a few thou long and forgetting to finish is not enough and will cause serious injury or damage as mentioned earlier with what I witnessed at Fort McCoy with the shooter being lucky that only his primers were blowing right out of the brass it could of been worse.
Does this short term cold welding thing really cause any issues?
Only if your pushing or demanding a lot out of the system - most don't even see the effects because of the distance demands and all I mentioned above also the brass will be fine unless there are other contributing situations that triggered damage.
Osoh
JH
memtb
Well-Known Member
Jeff, as someone that knows virtually zero about "cold welding"…..I'll make a comment anyway.
I don't think that it's so much about accuracy or anything other than "potential" over pressure!
For so of us that may "push the envelope" on pressures…..a "significant" cold weld could very easily push us into a dangerous pressure level! Just my take on cold weld problems!
So……if someone loads in bulk, expecting the ammo to be used years down the road…….."long seating" will prevent a problem that may very well have never happened! Simply……..cheap insurance! memtb
I don't think that it's so much about accuracy or anything other than "potential" over pressure!
For so of us that may "push the envelope" on pressures…..a "significant" cold weld could very easily push us into a dangerous pressure level! Just my take on cold weld problems!
So……if someone loads in bulk, expecting the ammo to be used years down the road…….."long seating" will prevent a problem that may very well have never happened! Simply……..cheap insurance! memtb
memtb
Well-Known Member
Maybe this is one of reasons……along with "dumb luck", that I've never, to my knowledge, experienced cold weld.
For many (many) years I've used powder graphite inside my case necks when reloading…….not just on new brass……but every time!
It's messy, but seems to help with a multitude of issues…..more consistent pressure required when sizing (expansion plug withdrawal), bullet seating and fairly low velocity spreads when shot across a chrono. Plus, knock on wood, no cold welds……yet!
memtbHumidity may be a major contributing factor, so those living in high and low deserts may never see cold welding, I don't know, WAG on my part.
Try liquid - no dust less mess more consistant.Maybe this is one of reasons……along with "dumb luck", that I've never, to my knowledge, experienced cold weld.
For many (many) years I've used powder graphite inside my case necks when reloading…….not just on new brass……but every time!
It's messy, but seems to help with a multitude of issues…..more consistent pressure required when sizing (expansion plug withdrawal), bullet seating and fairly low velocity spreads when shot across a chrono. Plus, knock on wood, no cold welds……yet!
The concept....is good, but why would a person be foolish enough to load 400 Rds at a time ....if worried about Cold Weld. Too many variables for me to risk 400 Rds at once. Just me!
RegionRat
Well-Known Member
Sealant in the necks was used long before my time and continues, but when they passed me the torch they indoctrinated me into their world.
As time passed I inherited many committees and specifications in defense, including ones involved in ammo and packaging.
robert rex
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2016
- Messages
- 55
I load 20 rounds at the beginning of each hunting season as designated hunt rounds. New Lapua brass, Varget, and Hammer Hunters. This year I took 3 rounds from the previous two years and the new batch to the range, shot a nine shot cold bore string. All 9 went into a hole smaller than a nickel. I stopped worrying about cold welding.
