Scope Levels- Why?

[milo-2]

Is this the only importance of using a scope level? Or are there more than these two reasons right here?
(As I wrote that, I'm thinking to myself 'what other reasons are there in a game of consistent accuracy?' )

I suppose I ask from the viewpoint of never having one growing up behind a rifle, but am now blown away at how critical they can be for consistency. Especially at long ranges. How do shooters that don't use them get their weld and muscle memory that consistent?

For the cost of a level that attaches to your scope tube, why not try one? Then you would know, if it is a valuable aid or snake oil. Even if there is inherit inaccuracies with cheap bubbles, it may still be better than your eyes or the bubble in your head. You can cant your stock 10 degrees if that is what is comfortable, and level the reticle accordingly, only the reticle needs to be level in hunting and most target shooting. BR systems I think are different, we don't use 1K+ front rests with 4-5" wide forends that are leveled by the rest itself.
The longer and the more you shoot at distance, the more accustomed you become to getting the reticle level, whether you realize or not. IMO, it becomes like driving on snow and ice, the more conditions you encounter, the more aware you are of it.
When I first got into LR shooting, I had bubbles on all my rifles, today it is 1 of 6, I still use one on a rifle I shoot to 2100 yards. Using that rifle last night, I did not use it much, matter of fact, I think it has been bumped and off a bit, and disregarded it for the most part, hitting to 2K was not a problem w/o it.
Only you can make the choice, not I or anyone else. If you are shooting a 34mm tube, I have a bubble sitting idle and will gladly mail it to you, use it, buy it, or send it back after you've made a conclusion.

 

[mwkelso]

Op, you can get an amazon $5 special to try out. Shoot at 1000 yds with it, then put some tape over it and go by feel. I'd like to see your results if you do

I'll give it a try and see what happens

 

[mwkelso]

For the cost of a level that attaches to your scope tube, why not try one? Then you would know, if it is a valuable aid or snake oil. Even if there is inherit inaccuracies with cheap bubbles, it may still be better than your eyes or the bubble in your head. You can cant your stock 10 degrees if that is what is comfortable, and level the reticle accordingly, only the reticle needs to be level in hunting and most target shooting. BR systems I think are different, we don't use 1K+ front rests with 4-5" wide forends that are leveled by the rest itself.
The longer and the more you shoot at distance, the more accustomed you become to getting the reticle level, whether you realize or not. IMO, it becomes like driving on snow and ice, the more conditions you encounter, the more aware you are of it.
When I first got into LR shooting, I had bubbles on all my rifles, today it is 1 of 6, I still use one on a rifle I shoot to 2100 yards. Using that rifle last night, I did not use it much, matter of fact, I think it has been bumped and off a bit, and disregarded it for the most part, hitting to 2K was not a problem w/o it.
Only you can make the choice, not I or anyone else. If you are shooting a 34mm tube, I have a bubble sitting idle and will gladly mail it to you, use it, buy it, or send it back after you've made a conclusion.

I'm using a 30mm, thanks for the offer though!
I'll get out to a long distance range, or even a power line with natural targets and see what happens. When I was canting to make the point of impact change, it was definitely more than just 2-3 degrees. It was probably 5, maybe up to 10.
Knowing that I have a cant in my natural point of aim, I'm thinking I should run with the level to change what's "natural" in effort to correct it over time. Thoughts on this?

 

[257Tony]

I'm currently reading Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook" and he explained the reason he doesn't use scope levels is because he's never seen one accurate enough to make a critical difference. When every degree matters at long range that bubble level just isn't going to give you 100% accuracy. If your eye doesn't naturally pick up plumb / level easily than perhaps they could help to some degree, I lived a former life as a frame carpenter so my eye naturally sees anything out of level ... drives me nuts! lol

I'm also not saying my eye is better than a bubble level, but like Ryan I feel they are at least comparable. Now if we get into digital levels that are gaining traction in the trades then we may have something to talk about given the higher levels (pun intended) of accuracy they can provide.

I also spent 20 years running framing crews, and can spot a picture off level from down the street. However, when you're in the mountains, and nothing is plumb or level, it's impossible to eyeball plumb or level.

For anyone still on the fence, watch this.

 

[milo-2]

I'm using a 30mm, thanks for the offer though!
I'll get out to a long distance range, or even a power line with natural targets and see what happens. When I was canting to make the point of impact change, it was definitely more than just 2-3 degrees. It was probably 5, maybe up to 10.
Knowing that I have a cant in my natural point of aim, I'm thinking I should run with the level to change what's "natural" in effort to correct it over time. Thoughts on this?

Hah, I do have a 30mm Holland level, pm your address.
Just as you ran your test at 200 yards, you can do the same at any distance as long as conditions remain the same.
THEORETICALLY you could teach yourself to shoot with built in cant of the reticle, the issues would arise duplicating that every time. In my head, level reticle easier to mimic.

 

[J E Custom]

I experimented a bit at the range today (200yds) with scope tilt.
As long as I was doped for zero, only the windage would change as I tilted the scope and shot. However, if I was using holdover, then windage and elevations both changed.

Is this the only importance of using a scope level? Or are there more than these two reasons right here?
(As I wrote that, I'm thinking to myself 'what other reasons are there in a game of consistent accuracy?' )

I suppose I ask from the viewpoint of never having one growing up behind a rifle, but am now blown away at how critical they can be for consistency. Especially at long ranges. How do shooters that don't use them get their weld and muscle memory that consistent?

Leveling the rifle with the scope is very important and can save POI changes at longer distances.
The father you shoot, the more effect cant will have on accuracy. I have competed with shooters that cant their rifles and had no problems, but these were matches and siter's were aloud. So it was common for them to have to adjust both windage and elevation for that distance. But for me it was easier to make adjustments during the match for wind and mirage.

For hunting, I believe you are better off having everything set up level because of the ever changing distance and conditions. If every thing is truly level, it is much easier to make adjustments on the fly. Most of the time, I don't have a level on the hunting rifle after I have established that it is set up level, unless it is for extreme distance. Then I have time to go through the mental check list and at least look at my set up to make sure the rifle is level.

The other benefit of adding a level, at least in the beginning, It helps teach/train you good Consistent body positioning.

Many long range black powder rifles will have a level on the front site. because with so much elevation on the rear site the POI can shift greatly if the rifle is canted. My 45/120 has 120 MOA
adjustments in the rear site, and with it all the way up. If you cant the rifle you can see the change in windage of the barrel.

J E CUSTOM


for that rifle

 

[Mram10us]

I'm using a 30mm, thanks for the offer though!
I'll get out to a long distance range, or even a power line with natural targets and see what happens. When I was canting to make the point of impact change, it was definitely more than just 2-3 degrees. It was probably 5, maybe up to 10.
Knowing that I have a cant in my natural point of aim, I'm thinking I should run with the level to change what's "natural" in effort to correct it over time. Thoughts on this?

The reticle must match the barreled action plane, meaning you can't have built in cant. If the reticle is anything but matching, what happens when you run up 20moa of elevation? It goes off to the side. That is why a tall target test is a must to verify the reticle and barreled action match

 

[Shadowwalker]

It's obvious which poster has tried using a level and which ones have not.

The average person can not resolve an angle any better than plus or minus 3 degrees with their eyes.

Rifle cant (what you create when your reticle isn't properly aligned with the vertical and horizontal of the stock) causes the bullet to move to one side and down from where your muzzle is pointed...no, your barrel doesn't care how the reticle is aligned but the stock does and when the stock and the scope are out of alignment your impacts become more random. At short range it's a fairly small error that most shooters can't see (unless you are a bench rest shooter), but at long range it becomes very obvious.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/3/28/rifle-scope-reticle-cant/


View attachment 190971

From the cant error information in the above picture, you can see that most shooters aren't going to believe that a level is useful because they don't shoot accurately enough to even see the error. A 1 inch error at 200 yards is usually written off as "...just how I shoot" and it isn't even recognized as a mechanical problem that can be fixed. When you start trying to hit accurately (1 MOA or better) at ranges past 600 yards you'll see the problem pretty quickly. Go shoot at 1000 yards and when you can't hold a group that's better than 3 or 4 MOA (30 or 40 inches) you'll start looking at that cant angle.

Due to the height of the scope above the bore, any cant will create and arc with the bullet impacts on the target. Most of the error will be horizontal but at longer range the vertical will become large enough to cause problems.

Aligning your reticle to a poor shooting position causes the muzzle to move up and down in one plane and the scope to move up and down in another. The longer the distance the more difference there will be between those two planes. Ever wonder why you had to add windage to your scope as you increased the range when there wasn't any wind? Well now you know why (your scope could also have a problem but that's another issue with reticle alignment), as the range increases you have to add more and more windage with every elevation change because of the difference between how the stock/muzzle is moving compared to how the reticle moves.

Very good report on cause and affect.......well done!

 

[Allen Kitts]

It's obvious which poster has tried using a level and which ones have not.

The average person can not resolve an angle any better than plus or minus 3 degrees with their eyes.

Rifle cant (what you create when your reticle isn't properly aligned with the vertical and horizontal of the stock) causes the bullet to move to one side and down from where your muzzle is pointed...no, your barrel doesn't care how the reticle is aligned but the stock does and when the stock and the scope are out of alignment your impacts become more random. At short range it's a fairly small error that most shooters can't see (unless you are a bench rest shooter), but at long range it becomes very obvious.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/3/28/rifle-scope-reticle-cant/


View attachment 190971

From the cant error information in the above picture, you can see that most shooters aren't going to believe that a level is useful because they don't shoot accurately enough to even see the error. A 1 inch error at 200 yards is usually written off as "...just how I shoot" and it isn't even recognized as a mechanical problem that can be fixed. When you start trying to hit accurately (1 MOA or better) at ranges past 600 yards you'll see the problem pretty quickly. Go shoot at 1000 yards and when you can't hold a group that's better than 3 or 4 MOA (30 or 40 inches) you'll start looking at that cant angle.

Due to the height of the scope above the bore, any cant will create and arc with the bullet impacts on the target. Most of the error will be horizontal but at longer range the vertical will become large enough to cause problems.

Aligning your reticle to a poor shooting position causes the muzzle to move up and down in one plane and the scope to move up and down in another. The longer the distance the more difference there will be between those two planes. Ever wonder why you had to add windage to your scope as you increased the range when there wasn't any wind? Well now you know why (your scope could also have a problem but that's another issue with reticle alignment), as the range increases you have to add more and more windage with every elevation change because of the difference between how the stock/muzzle is moving compared to how the reticle moves.

Great Post. I was just explaining this to one of my buddies who had never used a level before. I had him set my rifle on the shooting bags and then get into the scope and sight in on the target. The scope mounted level was not showing the rifle to be level so I had him move his face off the stock and level up the rifle with the level. The crosshairs were not even on the target at 1000 yards. In my opinion if you are going to hunt at long range then it is your obligation to do everything you can to make sure of a one shot ethical kill. I don't believe there are many people out there that can make these kinds of shots in the field in an ethical manner without the use of a leveling device.

 

[milo-2]

The reticle must match the barreled action plane, meaning you can't have built in cant. If the reticle is anything but matching, what happens when you run up 20moa of elevation? It goes off to the side. That is why a tall target test is a must to verify the reticle and barreled action match

Only the reticle needs to be level here.

 

[Braunschweiger]

I haven't read all the responses to know if I'm going to re-iterate what someone might've already said. However, scope levels really aren't the best way to level a reticle. After all, gravity is the factor that you are trying to mitigate in terms of crosshair "leveling." The best way to level a reticle is using a plumb-line. Once reticle is stable and level with plumb-line, that's the best time to use a scope level that wraps around the tube of the scope. To answer a couple statements/questions I saw about this effect out to distance, it becomes quite measurable the higher degree of offset you have. When dialing the scope your point of impact will shift off at an angle vs straight up and down as one would expect.

 

[Will Gray]

With the big $'s spent on high end shooting it would seem appropriate for a scope manufacturer to design a system similar to the iPhone using a level ap like RDGID or others. It should be in the focal plane of the reticle. A spirit level works but a damped plumb might be better, but having to move your head to see the level and then back to the scope on other than a bench makes movement likely.

 

[basinman]

Very interesting!
As I was searching Google for more on this, there was a statement that rung true for me. The scope and barrel are on two different axis's. So unless they're plumb to each other, then there is room for error.
I agree with seeing things plumb lol I work as a remodeling contractor, so I understand the pain! I wish I could get the guys to use a dang plumb-bob because they keep dropping the levels... We don't buy Stabila's any more now.

When I was in construction I used to go to Sears and buy Craftsman levels because of the lifetime warranty. I only had to buy one time and when they got knocked around and out of level Sears would give me a new level, no questions asked. Sorry, I don't mean to change the topic here.

 

[mwkelso]

With the big $'s spent on high end shooting it would seem appropriate for a scope manufacturer to design a system similar to the iPhone using a level ap like RDGID or others. It should be in the focal plane of the reticle. A spirit level works but a damped plumb might be better, but having to move your head to see the level and then back to the scope on other than a bench makes movement likely.

It would be awesome if a manufacturer could incorporate a level in to the scope, similar to how they're incorporated on many archery sights.
Maybe this exists and I just haven't seen it?