Scope Levels- Why?

[mwkelso]

I experimented a bit at the range today (200yds) with scope tilt.
As long as I was doped for zero, only the windage would change as I tilted the scope and shot. However, if I was using holdover, then windage and elevations both changed.

Is this the only importance of using a scope level? Or are there more than these two reasons right here?
(As I wrote that, I'm thinking to myself 'what other reasons are there in a game of consistent accuracy?' )

I suppose I ask from the viewpoint of never having one growing up behind a rifle, but am now blown away at how critical they can be for consistency. Especially at long ranges. How do shooters that don't use them get their weld and muscle memory that consistent?

 

[Sevy]

I never had one until I started shooting long range either. At 200 yards I think the difference is minimal. Whether you dial or holdover you want the scope to go perfectly straight up. If canted to the side even a bit at 1000 yards there is gonna be a difference. How much, I will leave that to someone better at math. I thought the same as you. I was shocked when I first put a level on my scope. Out of curiosity I held the gun comfortable where I would normally hold it with my eyes closed. Then I opened them and looked at the level and it was off a fair amount.

 

[mwkelso]

I never had one until I started shooting long range either. At 200 yards I think the difference is minimal. Whether you dial or holdover you want the scope to go perfectly straight up. If canted to the side even a bit at 1000 yards there is gonna be a difference. How much, I will leave that to someone better at math. I thought the same as you. I was shocked when I first put a level on my scope. Out of curiosity I held the gun comfortable where I would normally hold it with my eyes closed. Then I opened them and looked at the level and it was off a fair amount.

I'm glad that I'm in good company with how surprised I was

 

[SteelBanger]

I'm currently reading Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook" and he explained the reason he doesn't use scope levels is because he's never seen one accurate enough to make a critical difference. When every degree matters at long range that bubble level just isn't going to give you 100% accuracy. If your eye doesn't naturally pick up plumb / level easily than perhaps they could help to some degree, I lived a former life as a frame carpenter so my eye naturally sees anything out of level ... drives me nuts! lol

I'm also not saying my eye is better than a bubble level, but like Ryan I feel they are at least comparable. Now if we get into digital levels that are gaining traction in the trades then we may have something to talk about given the higher levels (pun intended) of accuracy they can provide.

 

[mwkelso]

I'm currently reading Ryan Cleckner's "Long Range Shooting Handbook" and he explained the reason he doesn't use scope levels is because he's never seen one accurate enough to make a critical difference. When every degree matters at long range that bubble level just isn't going to give you 100% accuracy. If your eye doesn't naturally pick up plumb / level easily than perhaps they could help to some degree, I lived a former life as a frame carpenter so my eye naturally sees anything out of level ... drives me nuts! lol

I'm also not saying my eye is better than a bubble level, but like Ryan I feel they are at least comparable. Now if we get into digital levels that are gaining traction in the trades then we may have something to talk about given the higher levels (pun intended) of accuracy they can provide.

Very interesting!
As I was searching Google for more on this, there was a statement that rung true for me. The scope and barrel are on two different axis's. So unless they're plumb to each other, then there is room for error.
I agree with seeing things plumb lol I work as a remodeling contractor, so I understand the pain! I wish I could get the guys to use a dang plumb-bob because they keep dropping the levels... We don't buy Stabila's any more now.

 

[SteelBanger]

Definitely room for error between the bore and scope, and honestly a simple bubble level is probably helpful for a lot of people who may not be aware that they are canting the scope. In that case employing a level is probably a great idea to get their mistake in front of them so they can correct it.

The Stabila 6' - 12' extendable level so you can go plate to plate is still probably my favorite framing tool. I watch people throw a 4' level on a 10' stud and cringe!

 

[dfanonymous]

For prs matches or things of the sorts that involves multiple shots under time, then getting good at not having a level should probably be a priority.
If you're a brand new military guy just about to go to sniper school, probably expect to not use a level, and get use to using the reticle and the gun itself to guess how straight you are.

For everything else, a bubble doesn't hurt anything. Yes there are some inconsistencies in bubbles, namely in different temps but you'll have just as much inconsistency with lack of experience and shooting on the side of a hill at something else on the side of another hill. It's hard to tell what's truely vertical. FYI accuracy first and some other companies made a mercury bubble level to overcome such issues.

Generally speaking if you're fundamentals are good you don't need a level, but if you a shooting from various terrain, constantly without training into it, a bubble level is a way to help, like a muzzle break on a 6.5 creedmoor for those that can't seem to control their rifles recoil.

 

[jimbires]

How Canting Your Rifle Affects Long Range Accuracy

How Canting Your Rifle Affects Long Range Accuracy By Carl Taylor The simple textbook answer is that due to the canting of the weapon, the round will impact low and to the side that the weapon is canting. The more the cant and distance the...

www.longrangehunting.com

here is another good article , it's off topic but well worth reading .

Reticle Perpendicularity

Reticle Perpendicularity By Darrell Holland Long range shooters go through great pains to properly set-up their rifles for long range shooting. Bipods, muzzle brakes, cosine indicators and a host of other widgets often adorn their newly created...

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[ButterBean]

There is a comparison somewhere of 4 different levels compared on a granite plate..........They all read different

 

[cohunt]

What about internal digital scope levels (vx6 etc)

 

[Montana73]

If I properly align the vertical in my scope reticle to my personal physical rifle mount to a 12 to 6 o'clock point when mounting my scope on my rifle like Darrel Long in article above, what use is a level? For example I bought a top level in the top of my scope ring but when I mount my rifle and align my reticle, this top ring level is off. In other words, how I mount the rifle butt and my handhold causes this ring level to be off.

i guess a level of the type that mounts on the scope barrel that is tightened to my scope mount of 12/6 position might work, but I'm puzzled on how this works better than just making sure my vertical reticle is proper each time to how it is sighted in.

I'm starting to believe that for me, a scope level is just one more bling to buy that doesn't really add anything to my rifle. More important to use Darrel Holland's guidance to ensure my reticle is aligned to my shooting position to ensure repeatable shooting.

 

[mwkelso]

If I properly align the vertical in my scope reticle to my personal physical rifle mount to a 12 to 6 o'clock point when mounting my scope on my rifle like Darrel Long in article above, what use is a level? For example I bought a top level in the top of my scope ring but when I mount my rifle and align my reticle, this top ring level is off. In other words, how I mount the rifle butt and my handhold causes this ring level to be off.

i guess a level of the type that mounts on the scope barrel that is tightened to my scope mount of 12/6 position might work, but I'm puzzled on how this works better than just making sure my vertical reticle is proper each time to how it is sighted in.

I'm starting to believe that for me, a scope level is just one more bling to buy that doesn't really add anything to my rifle. More important to use Darrel Holland's guidance to ensure my reticle is aligned to my shooting position to ensure repeatable shooting.

I think that the mounting is just a way to assure that tracking is accurate with some form of zero...
The math side of me believes if the scope is mounted in on that 6/12 relationship, aka plumb, then shot while plumb, then reticle tracking is accurate. If mounted correctly but not shot while plumb, then there are 2 axis's rotating, creating inconsistent reticle tracking. Which I believe would be the same if the reticle is plumb, but not plumb to the bore. Though that can be accounted for in a ballistics calculator as your offset.
But the experience shooter side of me is shrugging my shoulders. I know the above to be true on paper, but I don't know how much effect it has in the real world of long distance shooting.

Clarification- I don't mean the reticle tracking within the scope. I mean the reticle tracking with POI

 

[26Reload]

When i go to the rock pit to shoot I don't always get my targets level...sometimes well off level....but if i were looking at the target lines thru the scope and adjusted the site in to those lines I would be off on my alignment....
Using the mtm level on my scope..i know my crosshairs are where they are to be.....not out of alignment with an unlevel target....
And from there the third point of axis is created....
Some guys are using bipod fo keep their rifle level....but are the bipod holding the rifle level on an unlevel surface.....
The world isn't flat...it is round.....at least that's what we are told......conspiracy theory......

 

[mwkelso]

When i go to the rock pit to shoot I don't always get my targets level...sometimes well off level....but if i were looking at the target lines thru the scope and adjusted the site in to those lines I would be off on my alignment....
Using the mtm level on my scope..i know my crosshairs are where they are to be.....not out of alignment with an unlevel target....
And from there the third point of axis is created....
Some guys are using bipod fo keep their rifle level....but are the bipod holding the rifle level on an unlevel surface.....
The world isn't flat...it is round.....at least that's what we are told......conspiracy theory......

The world is not as we know it

If you were to shoulder a rifle to your natural hold, no level in mind, then sight the level, how canted do you find yourself?
When I played with this, I was consistently 2-3 degrees canted counterclockwise. But the reticle looked plumb while looking through the scope... The same thing happens to me when shooting archery. Maybe my eye is just off and I am one who needs the level!