Savage Mark II questions

[cstilt]

I recently bought a Savage Mark II stainless in 22LR to help me hone some of my shooting skills, and because I love squirrel hunting. So far I've tried 4 types of ammo through it and it shoots well enough to start. After a few groups I start to get vertical stringing. Today my first group was roughly 0.5" or so, didn't measure it. Same box of ammo towards the end and about 75rds later was about 1.25", but that was all vertical. The width was roughly the same 0.5" of the original group.

If anyone has any similar experiences with this and how they fixed it I'd love to know. I wouldn't imagine a 22LR would heat up easily enough to cause that.

Barrel is kinda free floated. The recoil lug is dovetailed into the barrel, and the stock presses onto the barrel between the receiver and the lug. This appears to be purposefully done from the factory.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[top predator]

Did you try wolf extra, sk match? they seem to shoot quite well out of everything. lately i'm using aguila golden eagle match rifle with decent results at half the price of the other two.

also try weighing the rounds, slight differences in the ammo make big results, it's just a way of lotting them seperately by weight anomolies.

a post i had somewhere else:

i am convinced that weighing the ammo works. i usually break it down to .1 grain lots when possible or combine a "multiple tenth lot" example: if the ammo range weighs mostly between 50.0 and 51.0, i'll put 50.1,50.2,50.3 in one lot, 50.5,50.6,50.7, in another , 50.8, 50.9, 51.0 in another. whatever is left will be for foulers. i'll then pick the best weight or combined weight lot for my paper compitition shooting, my second best for silhoutte, 3rd best for practice, etc.

when shooting through a chrony, that's really where the proof is in the pudding, recently did an ammo test on aguila golden eagle ammo on another site that shows the average fps of the different weights, however the post doesn't show that when a "flyer" accurred, either the fps spiked either on the high or low side.

that led me to believe that weighing them doesn't weed ALL of the lower or higher fps rounds that caused the flyers, but it DID weed out MOST of them.

the fps range on that particular test was low 1020's to 1068, which the really different fps showed up on paper.

so you are on the right track weighing ammo, i can't seem to remember what the best wolf weight was out of my rifle, however i do remember that the range of wieght was substantially lower than many other brands which i also believe leads to why wolf is accurate.

weighing, lubing, and lotting cheaper ammo really makes it perform better, or at least more consistant.

i just use a digital grain scale.
and another, describing the differences in weights (lengthy)
Rather than using 2 types of ammo, Rem Subsonics @3.17 a box or .06 a rnd, which are good through the mkii at 50 yards not so good at 100, and using sk match @6.50 box or .13 a rnd which is outstanding at 50, 100, 200 for me, I wanted to find an economical ammo that performs well enough to use for both practice and matches, if such a round exists.

A guy at the range gave me 10 rnds of Aguila Golden Eagle Rifle Match to shoot one day, had gotten good groups at 100 yards, so the search started for this ammo. Found some and ran a test on it, as posted below.

Aguila makes several types of Golden Eagle, 2 types in the black box. One is Rifle Match and the other Match. Rifle match is $1.00 + change more than Match. This test is rifle match 40 gr lead rn standard velocity. It was purchased for $31.39 a brick or .06 a round excluding shipping. This is the price I'll use for comparison to other ammo tested in a previous post, linked later on in this thread.

1. At first glance they appeared to be very very lightly lubed (perhaps just residue left from manufacturing).
2. weight sorted – weighed a brick out, main weight range was between 50.4 grains and 51.1. 24 rounds were below 50.4 and 9 above 51.1.

The ammo was shot through a Savage MKII, from a bench with a Harris bipod and rear bag. A Simmons 6-24x scope is mounted on the rifle, with a 20 moa base. I had left the barrel dirty and unswabbed for this test. 85 deg. F was the air temp, sunny, could only guess humidty may have been between 45 – 55% and a 2:00 to 5:00 less than 3mph wind, gusts to 5mph. shot 5rounds of each weight at 50 and 100 yards (getting too close to dark to do 200 yards). Each weight was cronographed at 10 feet from muzzle. The group sizes, flyers and avg. fps and the amount of rounds per brick are noted for each weight. Any shots that I knew that I pulled, I reshot the whole group again to confirm it was a pull and not a flyer.

50 yards / 1" dot

50.4 +1" / 1.25" w 1 flyer 1025fps, 14 rnds in brick
50.5 +.75" / 0 flyer 1033 fps 60 rnds in brick
50.6 -.75" / 0 flyer 1035 fps 65 rnds in brick
50.7 -.75" / 0 flyer 1033 fps 68 rnds in brick
50.8 -.75" / 0 flyer 1034 fps 78 rnds in brick
50.9 .75" / +1" w 1 flyer 1047 fps 77 rnds in brick ( the one flyer was cronied at 1067)
51.0 .5" / -1" w 1 flyer 1044 fps 67 rnds in brick
51.1 -.75" / -1.5" w 1 flyer 1049 fps 38 rnds in brick
51.2 and above only 9 rnds in brick, used for foulers, sighters, etc.

50 YARD COMMENTS: .25" lower and right POI than SK Match and Rem. Subsonics at 50. Just ever so slightly behind the SK groups at 50, but half the price can live with an 1/8" difference. Seemed that as a whole, 50.6 through 50.9 produced the most consistant groups and fps; as a "weight lot" 50.6 thru 50.9 = 20 rounds with .75" groups or less with 1 flyer just 1" (that flyer cronied at 1067). Avg fps of 1037. The most rounds in the brick belonged to this "weight lot"also. Most of the "flyers" were only .25" or less away from the main group could have been shooter error, and possibly close enough not to call them flyers at all, but I called them flyers anyway.

100 yards / 1.5" dot

50.4 no data - ran out of this weight
50.5 1.5" / 2.25" 2flyers
50.6 -.75"/ 1.5" 1 flyer (2nd most accurate / consistant)
50.7 1.25"/ 0 flyers (most accurate / consistant)
50.8 -1.25"/ 0 flyers (3rd accurate / consistant)
50.9 1" / -1.5" 1 flyer (4th most accurate / consistant)
51.0 1.5" / 2" 1 flyer
51.1 +1.5" / 2" 2 flyers

100 YARD COMMENTS: .5" lower and right POI than SK match, 8.3" drop from 50 yards (same as SK Match), MUCH, MUCH, better than Rem. Subsonics for the same price as the sub sonics. Once again, weights 50.6 thru 50.9 produced the most consistant groups at 100, as they did at 50. As a "weight lot" 50.6 thru 50.9 = 20 rounds with 1.25" or less groups with 2 flyers that opened it to 1.5".

200 yards / 1.5" dot NO DATA YET, starting to get dark.

OVERALL COMMENTS: leaves a clumpy residue in barrel, outperformed rem subsonics (my practice cheap ammo) at 50 and 100, weights 50.6 thru 50.9 appears to be the "sweet spot" in the manufacturing with 50.7 being the most consistant at 50 and 100. 120 rounds were fired, NO misfires, NO misfeeds, NO ejection problems, NO problems occurred.

Lubed an additional 20 rounds (see post on lubing…22 ammo lubrication - Sniper's Hide Forums ) of 50.6 thru 50.9, all groups at 100 where under 1.75" including flyers.

Simply put, the Aguila Match Rifle for the most part outperformed everything else (20-25 brands / styles tested recently) at 50 and 100 at the price paid $.06 a round. When superimposing the targets on the TQ4 I used for the August rimfire match, all groups where within the 9 and 10 ring.

Out of a 30 round "superimposed simulated tq4 100 yd bench" match, the score would be 288-9x's (6shots in 9 ring, 24 shots being in the 10).
The August match I shot with SK at prone and not bench scored 295-10x's (5 shots in 9ring, 25 shots being in the 10).

I believe the SK Match is slightly better, by .25" at 100 yards. But the difference is SO SLIGHT, and at more than half the price, I'll fill my ammo can with the Aguila Rifle Match, at least for 50 and 100 yards. I'm going to definitely replace the Rem Subsonics with the Aguila, and most likely the SK depending on 200 yard performance. A future report coming for 200 yards if you guys want it.

3 bricks of SK Match @6.50 a box = $195 + 3 bricks of Rem. Subsonics @ 3.17 a box $95.10 = $290.10
6 bricks of Aguila Rifle Match @ 3.14 a box = $188.00, a $102.10 difference with no readjusting optics!
If you practice with what you shoot for matches, 6 bricks of SK = $390, a $202.00 difference.

So I can compare oranges to oranges, I'll see how Aguila fits into an "ammo test thru a MKII" posted awhile back (see post… http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...958#Post1031958 PART 1 http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...970#Post1031970 PART 2 http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...980#Post1031980 PART 3) once a clean bore test is done, which will give me a clean bore rating (CBR), value rating (VR), consistantcy rating (CR), and overall rating (OAR), and a multiyard rating (MYR). Will edit post when done, however if weight sorted I belive the Aguila will perform and place better in the test.

50 yds - #1. Aguila Golden Eagle Match-1035 fps - avg. grp. .75", c. barrel +.5"MG, +.75"EG, 1/5 FL, d. barrel +.25"MG, +.5"EG, 1/10 FL CBR .75, DBR .58, CR .66, VR .58, FR 2/15 OAR .52 $.06, VERY good results for the price! leaves a clumpy residue, most shots where touching or in each other at 50 yds. slightly more flyers than the wolf, but flyers were not extreme (1/8" to 1/4" away)likes a dirty barrel better than clean.

100 yds - #4. Aguila Golden Eagle Match - avg. grp. 1.75", c. barrel 1.75"MG, +1.75"EG, 2/5 FL d. barrel 1.25"MG, 1.5"EG, 1/10 FL CBR 1.83, DBR 1.25, CR 1.54, VR 1.33, FR 3/15, OAR 1.49 $.06, excellent ammo for the price, half or more of wolf and sk, fell just short of wolf / sk and federal on consistancy, but for the price will live with it. Definately the best value rating, and third in OAR. Likes a dirty barrel. Leaves a clumpy residue. 8.3" drop. great practice ammo, not too bad of a match ammo, an all around dual purpose economical ammo.

Multi yard (average of 50 and 100) #3. Aguila Golden Eagle Match- MYR/CBR 1.29, MYR/DBR .915, MYR/CR 1.10, MRY/VR .955, MYR/FR 5/30, MYR/OAR 1.00, avg. MYR grp 1.13" (the suprisingly small groups shot at 50 yds and the price of the ammo helped it to reach 3rd in the multi yard rankings. the wolf was a bit more consistant on average at both ranges).

(in all fairness to the other ammo, the aguila was weighed and the most accurate lot was shot: 50.6 thru 50.9. it wasn't until after the original test of ammo thru a mkii that i realized the importance of weight sorting. however at $.06 a round, the time spent weighing may justify it's placement).

I'll use the 50.6 thru 50.9 for paper and the over / unders for practice and silhouette shooting as the 1/8" to .25" difference is less of a concern. looks that i found what works for me as a low priced round for practice, yet accurate, consistant, and dependable enough to do serious shooting, at least the ones weighing 50.6 thru 50.9.

mkii 100 yds

mkii 200 yds

 

[cstilt]

Sounds like I may need to look into weiging my ammo. When you did this did the you get a decrease in veritical stringing like I'm experiencing?

I want to try the wolf ammo, but it's hard to find around here. So far my best groups have been with CCI standard velocity. I'm just not sure if round points will kill well enough if I don't get a perfect headshot.

The MarkII you used for those groups. Have you done anything to it? Heavy barrel or sporter?

 

[top predator]

Sounds like I may need to look into weiging my ammo. When you did this did the you get a decrease in veritical stringing like I'm experiencing?

I want to try the wolf ammo, but it's hard to find around here. So far my best groups have been with CCI standard velocity. I'm just not sure if round points will kill well enough if I don't get a perfect headshot.

The MarkII you used for those groups. Have you done anything to it? Heavy barrel or sporter?

weighing ammo seemed to work for me through all the ammo i tested. along with lubing the bullet with alox bullet lube (i have a test of many ammo, and lube tests i should post)

i would use a hollow point style for hunting, depending on what you are hunting for and at what distance. the round nose will be ok for squirrel.

the weighing did change the vertical tracking a bit, but was still evident. i had actually did a little "redneck" gunsmithing one day and took a case chamferer used for reloading and made a crown on the muzzle. i thought 3 things when i did that:

1. ruined the barrel or have to take it to a real smith to recrown and fix my stupidity
2. no change in accuraccy
3. improvement in accuraccy

turns out it actually improved the groups, and eliminated a great deal of v. tracking. i shot the original pictures after, here is before:

i'm not suggesting that you do that with the crown, i was starting to loose a little accuraccy over the last few months and figured, what the hell?

the mkii i have is a heavy barrelled 20", rifle basix trigger

 

[top predator]

sorry i put alot of previous threads from elsewhere in this one, idid it before i started posting the others seperate. hope something out of all that mumbo jumbo will help you out.

quite honestly, if i had to do it again, i would have saved up a few more hundred bucks and got a cz452 or 453 varmint.

the savage is a better than decent choice though.

 

[cstilt]

Thanks for all the help. I will look into the weiging of my ammo and see how things go from there. The more I think of it the more it makes sense. Given how small the case is a seemingly small variation can have a huge impact.

My main goal is to have an accurate squirrel gun. 50 yards would be a bit of a long shot for me. Next time I go to the range I'm going be trying out some CCI Mini Mag HP's. Until now most of what I can find is nothing but RN bullets.

I know how you feel about the savage. I do like it and think it'll do fine for tree rats and so on, but I don't think it'd do too well for much target work. Atleast mine yet.

Oh, don't worry about the posting from other threads. Any way I can get some help is fine by me.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[kansas45]

By following the advice from the folks at rimfirecenteral.com & a little common sence, I changed my Savage MKII FV from a OK shooting rifle to a pretty good shooting rifle with a little trigger work & a few other things. It certaintly isn't a World Class target rifle, but is capable of hitting a 16" round steel plate at 200 yds almost every shot. I use CCI MiniMag HP's because of the brands of ammo I can get easily around here, it likes them the best. I find that good glass on a .22 is a good thing. After trying several size & brands I wen't back to the Center Point 4-16x40. It's mounted on a EGW 20 MOA rail. Kinda' silly that the rail costs almost as much as the scope, but they work good together.

 

[top predator]

By following the advice from the folks at rimfirecenteral.com & a little common sence, I changed my Savage MKII FV from a OK shooting rifle to a pretty good shooting rifle with a little trigger work & a few other things. It certaintly isn't a World Class target rifle, but is capable of hitting a 16" round steel plate at 200 yds almost every shot. I use CCI MiniMag HP's because of the brands of ammo I can get easily around here, it likes them the best. I find that good glass on a .22 is a good thing. After trying several size & brands I wen't back to the Center Point 4-16x40. It's mounted on a EGW 20 MOA rail. Kinda' silly that the rail costs almost as much as the scope, but they work good together.

i actually do alot of target work with my mkii, although it isn't an anshutz, it is a top notch hunting rifle, and a more entry level to mid target rifle and an exceptional value for the price.

at 50 yards should not be a problem, mine is under 1/2" at that range, and the mkii will be top notch at that range.

i also have a centerpoint scope (on my .22 mag marlin) , actually a darn nice scope for $69.00. hunted hard through heat,rain, snow, cold ,etc., still clear and returns to "0".

the 20moa base is nice, essential on the .22 past 150 yards.