Same old question + a couple I haven't seen.-Rifle and caliber?

[young1]

Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

I have been shooting rifles for may years. Both for hunting and for the simple enjoyment. From 22LR to 300 Weatherby. There is one trend that I see(that works in my favor in campfire betting) that I just don't understand: Why so many people that can't shoot in the first place, over gun themselves. Last deer season, I out shot: on paper and in the field, peaople with the latest mag. The worst part of the entire story is that almost all of our parties shots are from 25-400 yards max. I can consistently out shoot them with my 30-30 out to 200, and my .260 out past 300. Besides ads, why do people feel the need for an over powered rifle at these ranges?

Oh, the point of this post. I am building my first rifle. I am looking for just a 500yd rifle, which is nothing compared to some of the posts I see. I can get a Savage 10FP for under $400, a used Remington 700(short or long action) for under $350, or a SAKO action for under $500(those SAKOS are soooo smooth). Anyone of these rifles will be a building block for a custon rifle. Which would you pick?

Now for the caliber. I think of things a little bit differently than most. I see a short action as a builing block for the new Winchester Super Short Mag.(6.5,7, or .308 caliber) with heavy bullets. The long action gives you the potential to use any short mag with heavier bullets(or a .260,7mm/08,.308) without taking up powder space. Am I wrong here?

The bottum line is I want the best performance to hurt(recoil) ratio available.

Like I said this is the first(and first post) rifle I will be putting together, so any suggestions are helpful.

 

[Tim Behle]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Why so many people that can't shoot in the first place, over gun themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can't shoot because they don't practice. They are the same folks who think a box of factory ammo is enough to last for a couple ( Or More ) seasons.

The only plus side is, that marginal or poor hits with a bullet too large for the species can still be quickly lethal, or at least leave a large blood trail.

For your first rifle, to be used inside of 500 yards, I'd go with the Remington 700 long action. As your skills advance, you can use it out to 1,000 yards or more with out having to go to the more expensive custom actions. It is also easier to find gunsmiths in your area with lots of experience with this action.

After you get your first rifle built, you will get more settled in as to what you want to do with it. There is no reason to spend a few thousand dollars building a top of the line custom rifle the first time out. Not long after is gets finished, you will be wishing you had done a few things differently. Hold off on building the Cadilac for your second or third rifle.

I bought a 7 MM Remington Magnum for my first long range rifle. A good friend suggested it as the perfect cartridge for learning long range shooting. I'm glad I took his advise. There is a wide variety of bullets and brass, leaving me to focus on the nut behind the bolt.

[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: Tim Behle ]

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

I don't see a thing wrong with the 308. Out to 500 you can't beat it for an all around..

1. you can get match ammo in a pinch
2. Cheap to reload
3. A huge amount of bullets to choose from
4. Very very manageable recoil with abreak its a 223
5. Did I mention they are way cool....

6. as accurate as anything out there

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

I don't see a thing wrong with the 308. Out to 500 you can't beat it for an all around..

1. you can get match ammo in a pinch
2. Cheap to reload
3. A huge amount of bullets to choose from
4. Very very manageable recoil with abreak its a 223
5. Did I mention they are way cool....

6. as accurate as anything out there

ASK CJ on this board.. I danced around a PD within inches at 1200 yards with my 308...

You can Kill a deer out to 750 with the 175's...

 

[Brent]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

I like the 308 too.
Why not?

How important is extra power to you?
Do you hunt elk at 500 yards too?
Will the first one you build have a custom barrel, factory with what's availible or factory rechambered?
Will you want a different caliber at the next step?
Why drop down to a WSSM?
Do you see yourself going out past 500yds ever in the future?
Would you settle with less of something now for more of something else later if that makes any sense?

What type of performance do you feel you need in the way of velocity with how heavy of a bullet at the muzzle to get the job done to your expectations at 500 yards first?

How do you define performance? Really, to some it means trajectory, some energy with larger diameter bullets, some it's wind bucking ability with enough energy left to penitrate into the heart/lungs is all.

What is most important down to least important to you?

 

[BountyHunter]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

You have a lot of choices.

Couple things I would keep in mind while making them.

1. Buy new or used factory gun, do not build custom now. Save $ for quality reloading equipment and bullets. Good factory bedded and tuned is around $700, custom will run $1200-1500.

2. Do not plan on taking what you end with now as the basis for a custom LR rig later. In two years, more options will be out and you will have very definite ideas on what you want. Plus keep the old rifle for hunting and pleasure shooting.

3. Savage in 308 with 24" barrel needs another $80 for good trigger. But you can change calibers and barrels by yourself for $200 by buying Midway barrels.

4. 308 with 1-12 will shoot 168s to about 900 then they go subsonic and start having problems normally. 175s will go to over 1000. good easy cartidge to shoot and reload, cheap and great learning tool.

5. Nothing wrong with 7mm Mag, or 300 WSM. Both are great. Can do both with extra barrels in Savage also.

6. Consider Winchester Coyote in 300 WSM or 7 WSM ($550). 24" Heavy SS barrel. Think you might like it once you handle it.

7. All factory guns will need bedding, lug lapping and trigger jobs. Add $150-200 for that, except Savage, only choice is to replace the trigger really so add cost.

8. As it is primarily a hunting gun, I would stay with at least 7mm or 30 caliber. I want as much bullet hitting a large deer/elk as I can get. AZ is noted for long distances, wind and elk. If you are going after elk, consider the 7mm mag, 7 WSM, 300 WSM.

9. Buy a quality scope 4-12, 4-14, Nikon, Leupold, B&L or Burris etc with target knobs. I know you say you are only hunting now and limiting to 500 yards, but as you get better you will want to start testing yourself and gun and shooting longer, so plan on it now. Target knobs make it easy to up and down as needed and return to zero. Look for a deal on a used one in classifieds on BenchrestCentral, Xtremeaccuracy.com or ebay if you cannot find one local. Buy Burris Signature rings with inserts($50 or less). Allows you to add up to 20 MOA in elevation if you want it later without spending big $ for custom tapered bases.


Good luck and good hunting.

 

[Mysticplayer]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

Your thoughts on overgunning are very accurate. Simple answer - number of game killed. Most people today get to shoot one animal a year if they are lucky. Those animals vary so much that in a lifetime, you may never get a true feeling for what is needed to take a certain class of animal.

So, we turn to the "knowledge" given in articles or boards like this. Unfortunately, most magazines are also funded by the companies that make the newest loudenboomer through their ads. A bit of a conflict in interest. We base our hunt of a lifetime on experiences that tell you need a 180gr 30cal bullet at 3200fps to down a "big" Alberta whitetail, etc, etc, etc.

Hunters go "well I guess that is what I need" so buy into it. Of course, that much gun will kill a deer and that story gets told and so on. Pretty soon, monsters like the 30-378 and Ultra mags become common hunting calibres for animals inside 300yds. 90% of hunters are terrified of their cannon and avoid shooting them at any cost. No practise, no load development, no rifle tuning.

It happened with the advent of smokeless powder and it is happening again with the advent of premium bullets. The quest for bigger and faster is something we in North America love to do.

In time, the novelty and silliness will wear out and the trend will be towards efficient or traditional cartridges. I will say that without these big boomers, our LR passion would be nearly impossible.

As to why you kick most of their butts, probably because they just don't practise or practise in unrealistic ways - off a bench, at 100yds only. Gone are the days of people actually wanting to shoot for fun, like going to a driving range. Gone are most informal fun shoots. Most varmint hunters don't do much walking around either. You get my point.

For your first rifle, any of your choices will work. I love the 308/708, and 30-06/280 family of cartridges. They work for game and for target shooting. Their recoil is moderate and rifles in these calibres shoot very well.

The three actions can all be used for your custom LR rig in the future. There are very few actions that can't. Start with the basics and have your rifle "accurized" (action bedded and barrel free floated) and a good load worked up. Spend the extra money on a good scope with turrents. I am partial to B&L products and their 4200 2.5X10 is an excellent hunting scope (turrents are available too).

Good luck...

Jerry

 

[Guest]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

.....by the way definitly Rem 700 Long Action!

Scope - 3.5 x 10 Leupold M1

 

[Guest]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

[ 07-11-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]

 

[Guest]

Re: Same old question + a couple I haven\'t seen.-Rifle and caliber?

I agree with Tim Behle about the custom rig. I am building a 338 lapua that I hope to finally have by the end of January.

I also built a 7mm STW and the funny thing is any of the game I want to go after with the lapua, I can also kill with the STW.

I'm working up a load now for 156 VLD's for the STW and will be using the 300 SMK for the lapua. I keep telling myself that the lapua is for the moose and elk and the STW is my deer/antelope/sheep rifle. (Caribou is in the middle

)
Reality is I could probably use the STW for Elk or Moose also. I don't know if I would use the 156's but I could use the rifle.

I don't claim to be the best shooter, but I do practice and I can shoot....and I wont shoot past where I am totally confident I will hit. It is definitly better to shoot straighter than to rely on the BIG GUN to make up for error.

I also won't shoot a live target past 500 (yet) but it is a lot of fun learning on paper.

My suggestion for your gun.....
I would go with a 7mm STW I don't think the recoil is that bad. Or go with the 7mm Rem Mag if you want less.
I shoot my STW without a break I fugure its about 25lbs of recoil.
My reasoning is that you can hunt deer or elk possibly moose inside of 500 yards.
If your inside of 500 you could probably work up a good load with the Barnes XLC's. I used the 140's last year as a deer and they shot just under MOA. Barnes has made a lot of progress with the XLC's - accuracy is much better and they are great killing bullets. The 160 would probably be better for elk. Barnes only makes 160 and 140 XLC's for the 7mm.

If you want less recoil and don't plan on shooting Moose at 500 yards. Barnes also makes the 168 Match Grade hunting Bullet in 30 Caliber. I read in another post by Dave King that the 168 shot as good as the Match King. If you build a .308 that would shoot that bullet well you would have everything you wanted. The 30 Cal 168 is the only Match Grade hunting bullets that barnes makes.
Recoil would only be about 17lbs and accuracy would be fantastic

The thread is where Dave King talks about the .308 and the Barnes XLC is...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000487

If link doesn't come up search in Bullets Barrels & Ballistics
Topic: 168 Gr. Barnes XLC Bullet test

Good Luck in your decision.