Runout problems!

[MagnumManiac]

Hi guys,
I am having serious problems with runout in my 222Rem. I have RCBS neck and F/L dies, but the problem doesn't change from using one or the other.
So, I am assuming it's the seater die.
Do you think the threads may be off centre or damaged?
Or could it be the seater stem itself being eccentric?
If anyone has another idea feel free to speak up.
I am at my wits end over this, it is plainly visible to the naked eye when the rounds are rolled on a flat surface.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Cheers.
MagnumManiac.
gun)

 

[trueblue]

Have you checked runout during each stage of your reloading to know for sure it is happening at the seater stem. If so, are you using Berger bullets, and are the point of the bullet bottoming out in the stem while seating instead of the stem pushing on the ogive of the bullet to seat it. I had to change stems on my Forester dies because of that problem causing runout.
Just a thought.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Have you checked runout during each stage of your reloading to know for sure it is happening at the seater stem. If so, are you using Berger bullets, and are the point of the bullet bottoming out in the stem while seating instead of the stem pushing on the ogive of the bullet to seat it. I had to change stems on my Forester dies because of that problem causing runout.
Just a thought.

Thanks for the quick reply.
Yes, I have checked at each stage with both F/L and Neck die, not apparent during those steps.
I have checked to see if the bullet is bottoming in the stem, it isn't.
I have run the stem in a drill press, it appears straight and true.
The only thing I can think of is the threads are eccentric or the die is ****ed.
Still unable to find the cause.
Cheers.
MagnumManiac.
gun)

 

[Mikecr]

Questions:
How & where are you measuring the runout?
How much is there off the necks? Off the seated bullet noses?
Did you measure thickness variance in this brass?
Was there a chamfer turned at the mouths?
Has the brass been fireformed?
How many times has it been reloaded?
Has it been annealed?
How much tension is left with your neck sizing?
What kind of bullets are you seating?

 

[woods]

And how much bullet grip are you seating into?

 

[MagnumManiac]

Mikecr,
I am measuring on the necks first before bullet seating, they are running less than .001" of runout.
Once the bullets are seated, the necks are running .005" or more and the bullets are running above .005" measured on the nose.
I have not measured neck thickness.
I have not turned the necks.
This is happening with fired or unfired brass.
The neck tension is set at .0015" under bullet diameter.
The brass has not been annealed. The case mouths have been chamfered.
I am using Nosler 'SHOTS', 50gr SP.
I know these are not the best bullets going, but they are good for the intended purpose of the rifle; long range shooting of foxes under a light.

Woods,
I am seating the bullets .181" into the neck.

Cheers.
MagnumManiac.
gun)

 

[Mikecr]

Thinkin out loud here,,

A seating die doesn't move necks around like a sizing die. So bullet seating isn't going to increase runout in the necks -unless thickness variance in the neck is pushed outward by the bullet.

I get around this with a few tools:
I cull by thickness variance with this
Micrometers - Sinclair/Starret Case Neck Micrometer
I push accepted variance outward after sizing/prior to seating, using a mandrel
Turning & Expander Mandrels - Std 7/8-14 Expander Die
I measure runout with this
Concentricity Gauges - Sinclair Concentricity Gage with dial indicator

Now let's say you have a possible die issue,,
You could float a few cases while seating as a test of die center.
Cover the ram with a plate in place of the shell holder, seat bullets allowing the cases to self-center (free of any shell holder -like a hand die), and see if things change.

 

[woods]

Mikecr,

Woods,
I am seating the bullets .181" into the neck.

Cheers.
MagnumManiac.
gun)

Sorry, I wasn't specific enough with my question. The bullet grip number I was looking for was the difference in outside diameter of an unloaded round and the outside diameter after seating the bullet. If that measurement changes more than .003" then you could be inducing runout by having to use excessive seating force.

 

[Augustus]

I had an RCBS Comp. seater die that would induce .005 runout during seating with .002 neck tension. They can be fixed sometimes by throwing them in a creek. If it floats its fixed and if it sinks its hopeless. I learned this from a benchrest shooter.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I cannot find the problem, I have checked everything.
I am going to send everything back for warranty, and see if a new set changes anything.

I was thinking that if I also get a Redding Type 'S' bushing neck die this might fix the problem also?

What about the Redding Type 'S' bushing neck die set?
This is what I have for my 300WinMag, and it's great, but is it necessary for the 222Rem?

Mikecr,
I haven't measured the necks, but I don't think that's the cause, because runout after sizing is acceptable.
The runout is only measurable after bullet seating.
I am using the Sinclair concentricity gauge.
I am going to order the Sinclair case neck thickness kit in the next couple of days.

Woods,
The neck measures .239" before a bullet is seated, and measures .242" afterwards.
The 'feel' of seating bullets is quite low, they seat smoothly without any need of excessive force. I rotate the case by quarters as I am seating, but the runout still persists.
The bullets also 'pull' very easily, not a lot of force required to extract from the case with a collet puller.

 

[Innovative]

Are you using a resizing die with an expander button? Try to avoid that by using a Redding S-Type FL resizing die (using neck bushings). Forster and RCBS now also make the bushing type resizing dies that don't need an expander button. You'll be able to control your neck tension with any neck thickness (and it does vary quite a bit). You'll also probably get your runout down to about .001" because you won't be jamming your bullets into the case neck.

- Innovative
Innovative Technologies - Reloading Equipment

 

[MagnumManiac]

Are you using a resizing die with an expander button? Try to avoid that by using a Redding S-Type FL resizing die (using neck bushings). Forster and RCBS now also make the bushing type resizing dies that don't need an expander button. You'll be able to control your neck tension with any neck thickness (and it does vary quite a bit). You'll also probably get your runout down to about .001" because you won't be jamming your bullets into the case neck.

- Innovative
Innovative Technologies - Reloading Equipment

Larry,
I don't use the expander button type dies normally, but being a 222Rem, I thought it would work fine.

 

[Innovative]

Measure the neck diameter of your loaded rounds. You want to see uniform readings, and you want to be able to seat bullets without using excessive pressure. Too much seating pressure can distort your cases. If you start using neck bushing dies, you'll have complete control over seating pressure and neck tension. I'll bet you like the improvement in your runout.

- Innovative

 

[Mikecr]

I haven't measured the necks, but I don't think that's the cause, because runout after sizing is acceptable.
The runout is only measurable after bullet seating.

"The runout is only measurable after seating"
This is the basis for my notion that you have excess thickness variance in your brass.
Just a theory.. Let us know once you actually measure it..