Rilfe Group Fell Off

[ImBillT]

I'm a big fan of bronze brushes over nylon. 30 dry patches before dry patches are clean suggests to me that something isn't right. A dry patch doesn't clean much either.

My personal regimen, in something that needs a cleaning, but which I don't suspect to need anything extreme, is as follows.

1 patch wet with Hoppe's 9 to remove the big stuff. Let sit 1-10 minutes if I'm not in a rush.

1 dry patch to remove most of the Hoppe's. Also, wipe the cleaning rod dry. I only do these two just in case Hoppe's 9 and Bore Tech Eliminator don't get along chemically.

10-20 brush strokes using a bronze brush with Bore Tech Eliminator. Keep the brush wet, but not soaking. This may require a few drops of BTE one to two times in the middle of the 10-20 strokes depending on how much powder fouling was in the bore and how long the barrel is. If only 10 strokes in a short barrel the brush may not need to be wet after the first wetting.

1 dry patch to get out most of what the brushing produced.

1 patch wet with BTE. Now look at the patch. How green is it? How black is it? If it's barely green/black or not green/black at all, I'll be done with BTE and done with brushing. If it's white green, then I'll run a very wet patch of BTE and let it sit 1-10 minutes. If it's very black, then I'll run a dry patch and brush with Hoppe's 9 for 10-20 strokes, and I'll keep the brush fairly wet. I will repeat the Hoppe's 9/BTE steps until the second wet patch after brushing or soaking comes out reasonably clean.

1-3 dry patches until dry patches are coming out dry.

So usually that amounts to
1 Hoppe's patch
1dry
Brush with BTE
1dry
1wet
1dry.

If I suspect that carbon fouling is my issue, or if for some reason wet patches continue coming out dirty, I will use a few patches with Iosso paste between brushing sessions with Hoppe's 9, and I will allow the Hoppe's to sit in the barrel for 10-20 minutes before using dry patches. To use Iosso properly, you'll need a jag that allows you to wrap the patch around the jag not to poke it on the end, and you'll need to run the patch rapidly back and forth in short strokes moving some the barrel slowly. Feel for tight spots and keep working them until the whole barrel feels the same, snd then repeat. I will always use a wet patch or two of BTE between Iosso and/or Hoppe's brushing sessions to get any copper out that could be protecting the carbon.

 

[ImBillT]

The first shot being that far off looks like a bad scope, but you said it just came back from Swaro.

It could easily be many other things as well. You're definitely nearing the end of a 25-06's accurate life span.

 

[Louisiana Reloader]

Very well said TopPin! Great feedback and information. I'be got a 28 Nosler that I load for and my loads are pretty hot. Accuracy and velocity are fabulous now; however, I have less than 100 rounds through it. But there are no free lunches as I expect my barrel in this "hot rod" will probably be done in about 500 rounds or less. Consequently I do not shoot this rifle much except for hunting. Thanks

 

[DENRIK89]

I have a 25.06 Weatherby with Swarovski scope on it. My rifle groups fell off and opened up. At first I thought it was the scope so I sent it back to Swarovski. While it was gone I rechecked case length it had went from a 2.720 to a 2.780. Still using the same powder charge. i reloaded 2.780 and worked down. Replaced the scope tightened everything down and cleaned it. I dropped seating depth by 10 thousand increments. It finally grouped at 2.760 but not as tight as it used to. I had one flyer out of five shots. It used to group where I could cover them with a quarter at a 100 yards but that's gone. I'm lost I have been reloading for years. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you

25-06 isn't that overbore, compared to a .257wby, and shouldn't die after 1k conservatively shot rounds especially burning 4831. This is why it's really important to accurately measure length to lands when the barrel is brand new. As your throat erodes, IF your groups open up then you just run the bullets out deeper to get back in your seating node. If you're steadily losing speed then yeah your barrel is done

 

[Coyote101]

I'm just not there with this rifle yet but if it comes down to replacing the barrel. I know nothing about barrel manufacture's. The little I do know is some of them cost more than a new rifle. Or so close to it.

 

[DENRIK89]

I'm just not there with this rifle yet but if it comes down to replacing the barrel. I know nothing about barrel manufacture's. The little I do know is some of them cost more than a new rifle. Or so close to it.

Unless you're shooting benchrest it's hard to go wrong with any of the bigger mainstream names, your biggest accuracy factor will be a good smith. If you want to save some pennies look at preferred barrel blanks in Utah. They bore and rifle their own in house and the 3 I've used from them (2 have been prefits) have been stupid accurate, like shooting in the .2s

 

[Koda_]

I'm just not there with this rifle yet but if it comes down to replacing the barrel. I know nothing about barrel manufacture's. The little I do know is some of them cost more than a new rifle. Or so close to it.

I just recently replaced the barrel on my old 25-06.

From what I saw from your target group (minus the flyer) I would just rezero and see how long that holds. That was a nice group worth using. Its possible you could go a long time before it changes again. If its your barrel.

If it comes down to it just consult with a reputable gunsmith and ask for guidance on what barrel mfg to choose. You are correct it can be expensive but you will end up with a barrel thats higher quality than the factory barrel plus hand fitted to your action... you'll end up with a much nicer rifle than buying a factory equivalent rifle for around the same money.

 

[Carlos88]

1. Stop cleaning the barrel for the time being.
2. Shoot groups like you normally do.
3. I may have missed it, but I don't recall reading whether you checked all the screw tensions. 2 action screws, 4 base screws, 4 ring screws. If you have the Redfield type rear base with windage screws that's another 2. Buy an inch/lbs "screw driver".....15 in/lbs on ring screws, 30 in/lbs on base screws, 40 in/lbs on wood stock/"plastic" stock. Adjust +5in/lbs.
4. Wood stock? They tend to shrink when cold weather hits (changing action screw tension).
5. 1000 rounds is not enough to burn out a barrel IMHO (shooting as you described).

You have a mechanical problem which you may or may not solve quickly Be patient and write down what you changed and when. Don't change your load from the initial one that was accurate. Don't change more than one variable at a time and shoot again. Don't clean your barrel for at least 40 rounds (heresy I know). Don't ever go hunting with a recently cleaned barrel, it needs to be fouled. Clean it after the season.

Rifles are not black magic and voodoo doll dependent to shoot well/consistently.

Merry Christmas!

 

[highfinblue]

If you have a borescope you could see and eliminate Carbon build up.
Last year I updated to a better borescope,Teslong HD and fixed 2 rifle grouping problems.300 win mag went from 1/4 to 1/2 in groups to 2 inches with at least 1 flyers,Sometimes 2.
The problem was carbon build up.The borescope showed a dark tint to the barrel and I knew right away it was carbon.
Scrub with Isso or J B Bore Paste or both and got it all out and got both rifles back in the bullseye.

Carbon is definitely a possibility. I would look into that, or I would go ahead and get some good carbon remover and clean it as good as possible before I bought another barrel.

 

[hesse]

One other thing you can try is Tubb Final Finish TMS Throat Maintenance System.I've seen improved results on several rifles after just firing five of the coated bullets.

I have used them in the past it gave me about 300 more rounds of returned accuracy before I had to read barrel

 

[Seabeeken]

I bought the rifle new and I was aiming at the bullseye. It has had a steady diet of IMR 4831 50 grain with a nosler 100 grain BT. Pushing the bullet around 3000. When I clean it I always use Barnes swab the barrel wait 10 minutes then run a nylon brush 10 to 12 times. Then dry patch until clean sometimes this can be as many as 30 dry patches. Then an oil patch usually flowed with a couple more dry patches. That has been that rifles life.

For reference, Here is a pic of a friends rifle he swore was clean because he cleaned with Hoppes until clean patches came out. I bore scoped it to find thick carbon. Clean patches can mean that the powder fouling is washed off the carbon. In your case, you may have a carbon ring. Only a bore scope will reveal the truth. They are cheap and seeing in believing.
I should add, there is no solvent that will remove the hard packed carbon, only an abrasive will get it out. Iosso, KG-2, or JB's. I've tested about every solvent out there. Abrasives were the only thing that removed the carbon in this pic

 

[bluedog69]

I have a 25.06 Weatherby with Swarovski scope on it. My rifle groups fell off and opened up. At first I thought it was the scope so I sent it back to Swarovski. While it was gone I rechecked case length it had went from a 2.720 to a 2.780. Still using the same powder charge. i reloaded 2.780 and worked down. Replaced the scope tightened everything down and cleaned it. I dropped seating depth by 10 thousand increments. It finally grouped at 2.760 but not as tight as it used to. I had one flyer out of five shots. It used to group where I could cover them with a quarter at a 100 yards but that's gone. I'm lost I have been reloading for years. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you

Are you trying to say your case length grew .060? Have you trimmed case lengths?

 

[Litrfoot]

I bought the rifle new and I was aiming at the bullseye. It has had a steady diet of IMR 4831 50 grain with a nosler 100 grain BT. Pushing the bullet around 3000. When I clean it I always use Barnes swab the barrel wait 10 minutes then run a nylon brush 10 to 12 times. Then dry patch until clean sometimes this can be as many as 30 dry patches. Then an oil patch usually flowed with a couple more dry patches. That has been that rifles life.

Was the first shot a clean cold bore? If so don't count that in your group for zero. Usually it takes a few rounds to settle in to a group after a good cleaning. The group below looks pretty good for a hunting rifle. I would shoot three groups like that and see what you get, no cleaning in between! As many have said if the barrel is shot you will notice an immediate drop off and speed, this is reliable, provided you're using the same components, same Lots. Shoot it at 500 yards and if you notice a shotgun type pattern, the barrel is most likely gone, i.e. no consistent grouping. From what you said about your loading and shooting practices, I do not think the barrel is done. I would expect at least 1500rds out of that barrel. I shoot quite a bit of 6mm 115 DTAC the same speed, roughly, 2950fps and I get 1800rds out of them.

So check all your torque specs, check your scope tracking and go shoot those groups. Then you should have some idea of what the problem is.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Get a good inspection done on the barrel.
Especially the crown, I had one go nuts recently.
I spotted a flare on the corner of a rifling, got it recrowned and here is the first 3 shot group after 2 foulers used to get my scope back on paper.
I don't know how it happened, doesn't matter, but I know what fixed the issue.
A 150$ bore scope answers many questions. Good Luck.