Right Out Of The Box----

[SidecarFlip]

aside from that fact that your post presents a low skill level in attitude, I find it kinda funny. But tell me how many jet engines are built in WV or how many gears are cut there that are in the one percent catagory? That would be zero of course. Skill levels dictate wage levels in most cases. Or better yet how many folks over there can even read a micrometer down to one then thousandths of an inch consistantly. Run a five axis CNC machine center. Cut 17PH4 stainless steel without trashing it.

There is an old axiom that says that anybody can run a good machine, but not everybody can run a bad machine. Let me know when you can take a Monarch hand lathe and hold .001" all day long. I can point a hundred folks that can without a second thought, but can you?

You wouldn't last three hours on an assembly line putting a transmission together! Let alone a complicated one like a tank transmission that moves down the line at a very slow pace. Try cutting a housing sometime on a five axis machine center and not break the machine in the process. Idiots think they are button pushers, but even their boss knows they are highly skilled at what they do.
gary

We could discuss this to death but let me allow you a peek into my business. I own CNC machines and manual machines and while my CNC machining centers are conversational programming (not inputted G codes), I still build prototype parts on a manual machine. I typically manufacture parts both in prototype and short run production in exotic alloy's...all the time, including magniesum and high alloy stainless with ceram ic tooling.

I have no desire to work on an assembly line. Not my thing, just as I have no desire to be involved with unions.

None of that is germane to this thread.

 

[Trickymissfit]

A union company....Like most companies east of the Missipppi are......

I have no issue with a union company or union members. My issue lies with the fact that when a union dictates to an employer, irrational work rules and the employer concedes (for whatever reason) and then the union protects and condones non productive behavior, that spells doom for the employer/company.

A real good example is the Post Office and the Postal Union. It's the stifling work rules that is causing the post office to run huge deficits, not management or rates. They can't be competitive with independent companies like UPS or Fed-Ex because the union contracts are so binding.

The company I work for has stayed non-union in a union atmosphere in the indusrty we are in because they compensate their employees and offer a benefit package equal to or better than their unionized counterparts, a good philosophy far as I'm concerned.

Colt is union as well and I suspect Strum Ruger is too and it's of no consequence so long as they can sell in the marketplace at competitive prices, which, I know Savage can and offer an out of the box accurate firearm as well.

It all depends on good business practice and balancing costs with product pricing.

the one major thing that unions imposed upon the large corporations that really stands out is work place saftey. Forty years ago it was a common sight to see somebody going out the door on a stretcher, now it's uncommon. In skilled groups they do very little to get in the way or much of anything else. Those groups pretty much police themselves. Production lines are another story, but they wouldn't be there if either side didn't create an issue. (I'd swear that the two sides are in cahoots together to create issues at times). Yes there is the 2% that are a problem, and don't think management dosn't have theirs as well. In the years I worked in large corporations, the union and the company usually worked well together. When one had a problem the otherside was open to help them out.

gary

 

[WVRifleman]

aside from that fact that your post presents a low skill level in attitude, I find it kinda funny. But tell me how many jet engines are built in WV or how many gears are cut there that are in the one percent catagory? That would be zero of course. Skill levels dictate wage levels in most cases. Or better yet how many folks over there can even read a micrometer down to one then thousandths of an inch consistantly. Run a five axis CNC machine center. Cut 17PH4 stainless steel without trashing it.

There is an old axiom that says that anybody can run a good machine, but not everybody can run a bad machine. Let me know when you can take a Monarch hand lathe and hold .001" all day long. I can point a hundred folks that can without a second thought, but can you?

You wouldn't last three hours on an assembly line putting a transmission together! Let alone a complicated one like a tank transmission that moves down the line at a very slow pace. Try cutting a housing sometime on a five axis machine center and not break the machine in the process. Idiots think they are button pushers, but even their boss knows they are highly skilled at what they do.
gary

I appreciate the criticism since you don't thing a about me....Actually before I got into the Chemical Business I was in The maintainance dept for 5 years for machines for industrial Injection Molds and High Speed Van Dam Printers..So, I do have some expirence in machinery...... But to think that there isn't anyone else on the planet that can't do what is done what Unions do is very Arrogant and Naive.....And untrue! In Buffalo WV at the Toyota "ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION" Plants there and has as good pay and benefits if not better that the big Two and the half...I don't consider Chrysler a real big three anymore since the fed gave them to Fiat.....I deal with Chemicals that go to the all the Motor plants and have been to most of them across the country and I see what they are like and the difference is night and day.....Especially the attitudes........I go to the coal mines in WV, KY, VA,OH and PA and you have more guys that are happy that non- Union than Union, They are not being represented by the Union any more..The Union are for their own existence not theirs....The rank and file is their last concern until they need more money of course.....And don't even get me started on the abuses of the Public Unions.....

I understand the hostility though. The Union is a Dinosaur and is dieing a slow death and Union members needs to protect their sugar daddy while they can...

And you know what is so sad, if the Unions weren't so greedy and power hungry over employers, they could have more of role in the country......But no, like Politicians they can't handle the power....

 

[SidecarFlip]

Really no hostility. I'm way too old to get upset, besides, I'm upset enough over current events. I worked under a Union Contract (Teamsters) and a non-union enviroment (for the company I retired from and went back to part time ((on my time which is how I like it)).

I work to stay active and stay away from the wife who is also retired, they say abscence makes the heart grow fonder.... After 30 odd years of matrimonal bliss, absecnce is a good thing..

I'm like Gary, I do things but things I want to do on my schedule and that includes my shop time.

Once you remove the responsibility of 'having to go to work' and replace it with 'working on your own terms', things get much more realistic.

I actually like working for the same company that I dreaded to go to work at everyday when I 'had' to.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I've been inside all the major player's auto plants at onetime or another. Just came with idea exchanges and invites here and there. I've also been inside roughly 70% of all the U.S. machine tool manufacturer's plants, but usually on business. Some were very impressive and some were a joke.

Without getting a letter from a corporate lawyer, let me just say that some folks cut gears and splines like chopping wood with an axe. Some use cheap steels to cut corners assuming that nobody down the road is gonna ever know. In today's world most things that involve heavy machine work usually take place in what is known as an FMS cell. They come in all shapes sizes and flavors. 70% are junk as soon as the main disconnect is thrown the first time, and some run for what seems like forever. The worst come out of Asia with Germany right behind them. (sorry if that made anybody mad). The days of a transfer or suttle machine are pretty much dead unless you plan on cutting that exact part for the ten to twenty odd years without a single change in it.

Now picking on one truck brand that likes to tell me how big and strong it is, and get a good chuckle when the idiot drops this part and that part on the table top making a lot of noise. I've also taken gear boxes apart when the elite couldn't figure out how to do it from some very expensive European brands and a couple Jap ones. Germans had some very nice ground gears in there, and they also used 1960 technology in their gear development (was easy to see without a single measurment). Jap stuff looked like 1945 gear development. Sorry if that hurt, but trust me it's spot. But the material was the big difference, and I won't tell you the difference but it was substantial.

There are only two engines that recieve a 100% dyno test before ever being installed in a car or light duty truck. Not three, four or even ten. Just two. One of them is the V10 engine that goes in a Viper, and the test last 40 minutes before the dyno is shut down. Now that's roughly forty minutes longer than all the Hondas built in a week or two. All hemis recieve a dyno test as well but it's of shorter duration. G.M. and Ford are supposed to be doing one engine each like this, and neither will be mass production and nor is the Viper V10. That would also be forty minutes longer than all the Toyota production of the week.

Now lets take another step and check out the current worst of the worst. (I have only specs for the bottom five right now) The worst is a Mercedes SLK, and the next four are Asian. Looks like the Germans are getting much better lately! At one time they held five of the bottom ten slots with Toyota and Honda owning one each. The rest were Korean. So what were the top five? They all came out of those union plants you hate. Two were light duty half ton trucks. But to give credit where credit is due I must tell you that the top of the line Lexus and the Buick Lucerne trade the top spot year in year out. The difference between the two is usually one point out of a couple thousand points. (and of course about $30K). Actually the Buick has held that spot more than the Lexus. Of course one comes out of a union plant and the other does not. Plus one is $30,000 cheaper! The worst car period in this country is a Carolla I might add. (I was even surprised about that one) How they attained that position I don't know, but they must have earned it.
gary

 

[cfvickers]

Trickymisfit? How does Nissan fit into that? I ask for one because I drive a Nissan Juke and granted it doesn't have a regular transmission, two because I was interested and you didn't mention it. Assuming you have looked at something from the brand, they have been making a few waves with a few of their designs in recent years. Not sure how long it will actually last, but that CVT is an interesting transmission to drive with. I call it my gocart because it is only slightly larger than a gocart and never "shifts" gears. It is probably the most fun I have had behind the wheel of a vehicle. Their plastic parts are cheap and prone to failure it seems, but everything else on it seems as tight as when it was new 40,000 miles ago, And I am not overly nice to it aside from basic maintenance.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Trickymisfit? How does Nissan fit into that? I ask for one because I drive a Nissan Juke and granted it doesn't have a regular transmission, two because I was interested and you didn't mention it. Assuming you have looked at something from the brand, they have been making a few waves with a few of their designs in recent years. Not sure how long it will actually last, but that CVT is an interesting transmission to drive with. I call it my gocart because it is only slightly larger than a gocart and never "shifts" gears. It is probably the most fun I have had behind the wheel of a vehicle. Their plastic parts are cheap and prone to failure it seems, but everything else on it seems as tight as when it was new 40,000 miles ago, And I am not overly nice to it aside from basic maintenance.

I've only seen the heavyduty powerpacks torn down, and they don't market them over here. We did some power pack work for them and Mitubishi as well as a couple others from that area. The real weak area in most all Asian companys is gear development and spline processes. I don't like the steel they use on their main shafts like the others as it was developed to use in a compressive state. It's plenty strong enough but has a weaker granular structure after heat treating. Then when you cut the splines (which is a no no) the create a weak point. What amazes me about Japanese companies is that they do produce some fairly decient gear cutting equipment and gear grinding equipment, but don't use it! The spline on the input is one of the weakest points of any drive trane, and the processes are very closely guarded. All I'll tell you is that the steel used in some domestic drive tranes is as good as money can buy, and far better than most of the others (but a little more expensive at about 25%). If the Japanese used the spline development process used by some others, they could cut their cost of that part 33% and end up with a part that's probably 30% stronger. Gears are interesting. For some odd reason they do shave critical gears, but don't spend a lot of time getting the processes right. The full sized Nissan did a better job at it than Toyota if that matters much. (I don't know what processes they went with on the new full sized truck design, but know exactly who processed it) I look for their new truck to use a ZF design, or maybe even Asian (company) The real issue here is that the consumer is having to pay for a fix that he shouldn't have to if the process and design were correct (Mercedes Benze is a fine example). The other issue is that all foriegn corporations use standard JIC gear profiles, and they have long been obsolite (I think the last ones were the old Muncie four speed and the Ford Rock Crusher gear boxes.). These gear profiles are noisey and don't carry as much of a load as newer designs do. Plus have a higher wear factor number. The average Joe won't know much of a difference, but a guy that uses them really hard will. I liked the full sized Nissan trucks for they way they went about designing them (well I still hate their grill work). Gear design has come a long way over the last twenty five years or so, and the better companies develope their own profiles. But cutting them is another story.

As a side not, CAP gear grinding is kinda like the standard in the aircraft industry. Very fast and very accurate. Kinda used in Germany extensively in the high end auto companies as well. We brought them in for a no bid contract on what we thought would be a half dozen machines. They were allowed to look over the finished product, but never allowed to see the processes. They simply asked us how we managed to cut gears and finish them so close without ever grinding them? Then they simply said they could grind them as close as we finished them, but no better. We showed them the door. The company was fairly new to me, but had heard about them over at Rolls Royce. Was wanting to goto Germany to see what they actually made and how they were made, but never got to go. Germans do make some very nice gear generating equipment, but the hobs have fallen way behind Gleason. Swiss still make the best gear grinding equipment, but they don't do well in high volume production lines.

Lastly, I did a study a few years back on my own. Of all the gears cut in a drive trane, they cut more pinion gears than everything else put together. Also the smallest gear. In 1980 a guy in a cell ran two hobs and two Fellows shapers, plus a shaver and a hone every now and then. He also deburred every gear and cleaned them up for heat treat. He cut five gears every three minutes off the hobs. The fellows cut large bull gears that took close to forty minutes a piece. Needless to say he was busy all the time. He made about $7.75 an hour. That same basic pinion gear now is run in a cell that has five Gleason hobs, a CNC lathe cutting gear blanks, two auto deburr machines and several gear shavers but no hones. He gets three gears off each hob every fifty seconds. All machines are loaded via a robotic gantry system except for the primary input lathe (he simply keeps a chute loaded with stock. That guy now earns about $24 and hour. cuts gears with a deminsional window of less than half of what it was in 1980. The guy in 1980 actually got about 400 gears a shift after changing cutters and a few other things he had to do. The guy now days gets well over 2500 gears a shift and changes cutters at least once a shift on every machine. If you do the math we now have less money in a gear than we had in 1980. So much for an over paid union guy! Wages have little todo with it, it's the work output per hour.

My favorite one is the transmission case. Similar in size to what goes in all the full sized pickup trucks these days (no matter what brand name). In that cell there is one man (or woman) that actually runs eight machine or more depending on the cell's design. Another man does nothing but rebuild tooling for these machines. There is another person who loads and unloads fixture pallots. These machines are fed via robotic cars that travel around in a set pattern. They can cut a case in twenty five minutes complete, but normally run them in a 35 minute cycle as it's easier on the tooling. Prior to that they would have done this on a transfer machine with at least three operators, and three men rebuilding tools. Plus another loading and unloading the line at both ends. Yes we got more cases (about every four to five minutes), but when it was down you were done. The other way will still allow you to run the other seven machines (or more). Cases come out better in the fms system, and the volume pretty well matches what they need in assembly. Cost wise the transfer is a little cheaper, but also harder to assemble adding labor cost to the finish product. In the end you have about forty-five minutes in assembly verses an hour and ten minutes. The folks in assembly have a set period of time per station that they cannot controll unless something is wrong. If he or she dosn't like what they see they simply set off an alarm and an engineer is there in about two minutes to see what's up.
gary

 

[WVRifleman]

Really no hostility. I'm way too old to get upset, besides, I'm upset enough over current events. I worked under a Union Contract (Teamsters) and a non-union enviroment (for the company I retired from and went back to part time ((on my time which is how I like it)).

I work to stay active and stay away from the wife who is also retired, they say abscence makes the heart grow fonder.... After 30 odd years of matrimonal bliss, absecnce is a good thing..

I'm like Gary, I do things but things I want to do on my schedule and that includes my shop time.

Once you remove the responsibility of 'having to go to work' and replace it with 'working on your own terms', things get much more realistic.

I actually like working for the same company that I dreaded to go to work at everyday when I 'had' to.

I appreciate your opinion, I really do...My dad was a Teamster and a United Coal Worker at one time and got screwed by both....And I was shot at by Teamsters down in VA over something my company had nothing to do with. So, you can imagine why I really have real sour taste for the Unions.........

 

[SidecarFlip]

I love to read Gary's posts. They literally drip with experience. I read his posts and I can put myself right there, in the shop, amidst the smells of coolant and the noise of machinery and I can smell the hot motors... Always a treat Gary..... Thanks.

Far as unions or not unions, if Obama gets his way, unions will be a thing of the past, Capitalism will be a thing of the past like the freedoms we still enjoy but the government is continually chipping away at, everyday.

You won't have an employer like you do now. The state will be your employer, set your wage, provide benefits (Obamacare is the prime example of whats to come), provide housing, food, transportation with no choice on your part. You want an SUV, no problem, so long as the state deems you need one. If they don't, guess what... you drive what they tell you, you can drive and that may be shoe leather express. All depends on what the state deems you need, because you have no freedoms anymore. To choose is a freedom, just like firearm ownership. The state won't have that.

Obama is about state run everything, just like Chavez and Castro and I really wish the citizens would wake up and smell the vinegar before it's too late. It's almost too late right now. It's scary.....it's REAL and it's happening right now in Washington, in your state government and in your local government. All for one goal...Socialism. you aren't going to like it. Just look at recent (100 years) of history. This has all be done before, with terrible results.

I won't have to live the nightmare, neither will Gary or Len or my wife or my friends because we will all be gone, taking the eternal dirt nap.

I'll be up there watching though and thinking to myself.... You had the chance and blew it because you want your *** wiped by the government. Toilet paper has it's price......

My wifes grandparents escaped the death camps in Nazi Germany when Hitler systematically exterminated the Jews. You are looking at the same thing here. It's not here yet, but complacency will hasten the end result.

Thats why I say and keep saying, it's not about me, it's about we......

That price is freedom, never, never forget that.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I better add the reason why this is all coming about. Three words, Power, Greed and Wealth.

Power in the form of ultimate control. Why do you think the job of President is such a coveted position? The President is the most powerful person on the planet. Obama basks in that power and he don't want to give it up, in fact, he wants more and more power, hence Socialism.

Greed in the form of the government through corruption and shakedown tactics will extract unimaginable amounts of money.

Wealth.... Obama and his cabal will become the wealthiest humans on ther planet...all on our backs.

Don't worry though, you will never have squat, The state will make sure of that. No guns, no ammunition, no cars, no motorcycles, boats, no luxury items, just necessities so you can go to work.....for the state.

I said years ago... Just follow the money trail' Its still the same game, nothing has changed. The grass is greener over the next hill. Problem is, over the next hill is the desert.

 

[WVRifleman]

I agree with you there 100% Sidecar....The future ain't too bright with either party in charge...One is takin us to the communist utopia in a speed boat and the Republicans are doin it in a pontoon so, where do we turn?......

Bush started the Patriot Act that opened up pandora's box and they ain't lookin back......Bush was even quoted to saying the " the constitution is just a piece of paper"........

 

[SidecarFlip]

This all started back with Teddy Roosevelt, before any of us were born so it's not present day news really.

I believe what has to happen is the people need to take back the country from those who have ill intentions. Problem is, doing that would resort in bloodshed, heartache and a general disruption of everything we all take as normal, like what happened during the Civil War... and I'm really uncertain if the people would do it.

Remember, we are a minority (firearm owners) compared to the total population. It's like Roas Parks standing up and saying 'I'm not sitting in the ****** section of the bus, I'm an American and I'll sit anywhere'. In reality we are a modern day Rosa Parks.

On another note, ammunition is positively stupid priced. You can't get 22 rimfire and if you can, the once cheap stuff (bulk boxes of Remmy) that were 16 bucks for 500 3 months ago are 26 bucks, if, you can find them and Federal 223's are a buck a pop, 20 bucks for 20 rounds. Thats insane.

I have enough 223's to take a trip to Hawaii.

Yes, thats a Vincent Black Shadow in my signature picture.....T.E. Lawrence's favorite bike. I got to ride it a couple years ago. 'bout crapped my britches.....

 

[WVRifleman]

WOW, Sidecar, I'll bet that was a hell of a ride!......I'm not so sure the gun owners are a minority or not? ....The media would like for yea to believe that but with estimated 300 million guns in the US and over 320 US citizens and I know your lookin about 150-200 million that ain't repeat ownership, I'd argue that's over half the country is a gun owner and the rest isn't armed.....But I do agree the fortitude to rise against a corrupt government that was put in place by the Declaration of Independence to do just that probably isn't there....

And those who would will be taken out by these "unarmed" drones.....They say best trick the devil ever played is the one that he never existed...Well, Obama may be topping him on that!.....What I can't get is he's doin it right in front of people faces and they "ACT" like they can't or won't see it?

Is it because of his race do you think? They don't want to be called "racists" if they call him out on the things they know that's wrong?..And I'm talking about ANYONE in congress from either side to stop this war on our rights here....

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'm a British bike person. I have a .com site where I sell Triumph Motorcycle parts and I have a garage full of British bikes, Triumphs and Norton's. It's a hobby/business. I won't get rich, I don't want to actually, just an extension of what I like I guess. I've met lots of interesting people through the bikes. Like firearms, they are real collectible. I don't ride much anymore but I take them out occasionally to circulate the oil or to shows. I have a room full of trophies, like mounts, you get them and the collect dust. All of them are sitting on Battery Tenders right now.

The Black Shadow was the first super bike that could run over 100 mph. Problem was, it had the engine but no brakes. Stopping it is like sticking a stick through the spokes and praying. That one is worth just this side of 100 thousand. I've ridden about everything from the Vincent to MV Augusta's. They are all fun. I can't afford either. The late Tom Lester was a close friend. Tom donated many cars and bikes to the Crawford Automotive museum. He used to let me ride his bikes...carefully, of course. That particular Vincent is owned by Randy Baxter. Randy is in Iowa, in the middle of nowhere. He's got a whole air conditioned barn full of vintage iron. He collects too. It's addicting.

The MV I rode was a transverse 6 cylinder that won the Isle of Man in the early 60's. Another super bike with marginal brakes.

Back when I was young and dumb, I held my AMA Professional License and I raced anything with wheels. I'm way too old for that crap now, besides the super bikes of today are way too fast for my tired ***. I have various screws and pins keeping me together. I'm reminded every time it gets cold out.


I don't know the answer to our dilemma. It's out there somewhere I suppose. I realize lots of people own guns, both registered and unregistered, I know a lot both ways.

You can't look at the entire percentage as activists. You have to discount about 50% that will 'just go along for the ride' Thats why I said at the outset that chest beating isn't the answer. I've found through experience that the chest beaters on most issues will be the ones that are really complacent in the end. The rollovers and obey. Turn in the guns, whine a bit and accept the cheese.

Obama has the media in his back pocket and always has, thats easy to surmise, just watch any newscast. They are all devoid of any pro firearm stance, like firearm owners don't even exist, but full of the slightest utterance from the gun grabbers. I don't even watch the boob tube other than Hotel Impossible and the outdoor channels and I don't read the paper other than the market and the death notices, because my friends all seem to be dying. I guess it's old age. Print newspapers are only good for under wet boots, cat pan liners and wrapping loose garbage in, not much more IMO.

My mom once told me I should have run for President. Great thought, just a thought. I'm not wealthy enough for one, I'm too old now and my views aren't mainstream anyway. Never have been.

I'd like to see the dysfunctional Republicans mount one last attempt at the Oval Office, problem is, who is a good candidate? Ron Paul is, but he's a tired old man. His son Rand, I don't much care for and the perennial presidential candidate, Dennis Kuchinich, I grew up with that weasel. He's a piece of work. Dennis would make a good President. Even as a kid he'd talk one thing and do something else.

I'd like to hope that this all comes out with everyone content. I just don't think it's going to play that way. Obama is focused on destruction of the United States as a democracy and here we are, defending the Constitution. Something is wrong with the whole picture, but what do I know.

I'm glad I have spell check. My spelling sucks......