Remington 700 VSF vs Savage 10/110 Predator Hunting Max 1

[Trickymissfit]

I have a model 10 max 1 22-250, it will eat anything up to 64grn berger fb, when I first got it, I couldn't get my hands on any norma or lapua brass, so I went to walmart and bought 3 boxes of the 40ct usa 45grn hollow points, at 28 a box you can't beat em, if you can do your part you can sit there all day with those rounds and shoot as many as you want and go and cover the whole group with a quarter when you are done. I got the guy I bought it from to through a box of 55grn hornadys in with the rifle, they shot good, but not as good. That model 10 is the most accurate rifle I have that's under twelve pounds with scope and bipod. I can't help on the remington as I have never owned that model.

have had three Savages in 22-250, and I found out by luck that the barrels seem to prefer the Sierra #1365 55 grain bullet. I remember reading somewhere in a length discussion that the twist rate equation is near perfect with that bullet (over on B.C.). Powder wise all three of mine prefered IMR 3031 for about 3550 fps (I wanta say 35.5 grains, but don't trust me on that). Seat the bullet very close to the lands (.002") and run about .004" tension on the bullet. I've shot a few high ones and a lot of mid to low twos with that load out of them. Interestingly, as close as 2015BR is to 3031 you'd think it'd work well. But I can't make it shoot well at all.
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

The Savage is a medium contour barrel with a sporter style stock. I think I am leaning towards the 1;12 twist rate, as you say, it will have more ammo versitility than the remington guns. I would be shooting it off a harris bipod (13'-27"), from a sitting position, my usual set up for predator hunting. The Remington stock has no bedding system whatsoever, just the basic two screws from the trigger guard up into the synthetic stock, the usual (and lacking) Remington fare. The problem with most of the current crop of reasonably priced rifles with synthetic stocks is the plastic, no fiberglass or anything to stiffen them up in the fore end. When you turn a bipod mounted rifle in the dirt (to follow a moving target for example) on one of these cheap synthetics, the stock just flexes right up against the barrel and can cause erractic shots. I am thinking the Savage stock may avoid that problem, although the stock on the Remy VSF is stiffer than most. The weird thing is, I tock the stock off the Remington at the gun store, (pretty cool shop to let me do this) and at the very end of the fore end actually supporting the barrel (if you can believe it) are two tabs moulded into the stock that the barrel rides on. This goes against everything I have ever known about accuracy, but Remington claims in their advertising that this is their most accurate line of rifles! Maybe the Remington "scientists" have discovered someting new that heretofore has been undiscovered!? Wondering if anyone knows anything about how or why these barrel supporting tabs should work?

Chances are, the Savage is already free floated in addition to their unique beddng system, something Remington has never seemed to get. Am hoping to hear from someone that shoots a Predator/Hunter model with the accustock system to see if the think the foreend is stiff enough to handle a bipod without effecting repeatability. Thanks for your help!

Arizona Mike

My Remington came with a die cast alloy bedding block thing that went up into the forend. What a piece of junk! I ground a ball end mill that was a slightly smaller in diameter than the diameter of the reciever, and ran the end mill accross the bedding block. Then went up front and completely relieved it. After this was done I made a lap and lapped the bedding block for about 85% contact with the reciever. Found that it still moved all over the place so I simply pillar bedded it. Later I had to rework the recoil lug area as I found out that it was never right.
gary

 

[arizona mike]

Interesting comment on the Remington bedding block, kinda makes you wonder why they (remington) even bother. It sounds a little like the Accustock bedding block (although I have never seen one) by your description, hope the Savage one works better than what you describe for your remington! Most people seem to agree that it does. One thing that someone just reminded me of on the Savage is the tang safety which I think will be more intuitive than a 700's safety to work, at least in a predator hunting situation where those pesky critters are popping up out of nowhere sometimes. I have flubbed more than one shot trying to hurriedly release a 700 safety while looking through the scope when a coyote popped out from around a bush!

Thanks for the tip on the 55 gr Sierra, I will definitely give then a try. Wow, this whole picking the right bolt gun is a lot of work.....sometimes I am tempted to just go with an AR!!

Arizona Mike

 

[chas3stix]

The Savage Model 10 Predator Max-1 that I own (6.5 Creedmoor) is the most accurate out-of-the-box rifle I've ever owned. 3/4" three shot groups @100 yds.,for me, is plenty accurate for any four legged critter I may encounter.

 

[arizona mike]

Well, that's another great endorsement for the Predator 10, thank you. I sure am not getting any on the Remington rifles. It's been revealing as to how many people think very highly of these Savage rifles. I am getting the drift that they may simply be the best out of the box shooters out there.

 

[backwoods83]

Yeah, that's about the half of it Mike, I shot a box stock model 12 F class in 6.5x284 for a good while in 1k IBS, it was topped with a 12-42 nightforce in warne rings on an egw rail, it shot 1/2-3/4moa at 1000yards, it now has a kreiger barrel and TPS rings and its not much better, just fouls less and is easier to clean.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Like I said, I love my 700VS, but it's quita bit removed from the 700 I took off the shelf one afternoon. Off the shelf it was a rock solid 4" group shooter with hand loads, and others couldn't even get that. Should have returned it to Remington, but I'm rather hard headed. So I virtually rebuilt the entire rifle. It shoots just under half inch groups, and has a near perfect balance for off hand shooting. I've heard that Remington redesigned their trigger again, and I hope so! Mine was a "J-lock gun", and I'd avoid them like sleeping with my mother inlaw.

The nice thing about the Savage is the Accutrigger and the barrel nut. Down the road you decide you want a little more knock down power, so you buy a 6XC barrel and just neck up your old 22-250 cases to 6XC, or something else. The down side of the Savage is that they are somewhat heavier than the Remington.I like the laminate varmit stocks for shooting off bags or a rest. They ride a windage plate much better than most all production guns, but still leave a little to be desired (rear of the stock needs a redesign). The Savage has a better barrel than most Remingtons right outta the box, but I still wouldn't call them fantastic. Most of all I've never been in love with their thoughts on cartride selection! (and in some cases barrel twist rates). They are not super pretty like my 1885's, but they do shoot well
gary

 

[rscott5028]

[...]
and I'd avoid them like sleeping with my mother inlaw.
[...]

Gary - you know we don't discuss politics or ethics here

 

[arizona mike]

Thanks again guys. "Tricky" is right about the looks of the Savage rifles, they aren't as attractive as the Remingtons, I have to keep reminding myself not to get sucked into that trap as that Remington 700VSF is a real looker with the fluted SS barrel and a two tone stock! I'm pretty sure the remington guys are relying alot on that for sales instead of focusing on better and more accurate shooters. I don't think the yotes are going to complain about the looks of the Savage though, 'cause they gonna be DEAD! As to the new Remington adjustable triggers, yes, I'd have to say those turned out pretty nice, at least the one I tried was. Comparable to the accutrigger I think. That was a good move by remington. They adjust with an allen wrench at the base of the trigger, very easy and fast to tune. If they would just improve their barrels a little and pay some attention to a better mid-line stock I think they'd have a winner. They have been coasting on the long standing history of the 700 action alone for just too long. You guys are talking a bit over my head on some of the other stuff though, although I am getting "into it". I shoot around 30,000 rounds a year in competion pistol and am an avid hunter, but the advanced science of accuracy and gun builds some of you experts get into is beyond me sometimes! Reloading pistol rounds is a no-brainer but I guess I am a little intimidated with the required knowledge and additional equipment and precision required to get really great rifle loads. I'm trying to pick up what I can though, and really appreciate the advice and help of you all. Good stuff!

 

[rscott5028]

You're talking about mass-produced factory rifles and both companies turn out hummers and bummers. Neither one provides an iron clad guarantee on accuracy.

Either one can be made to shoot well with little effort.

-- richard

 

[arizona mike]

I agree wholeheartedly, the secret is to figure out which are the "hummers"! I think this forum is helping me figure that out. Someday, time and $$$ allowing, I'd look forward to really getting into 1000 yd stuff with a custom build, etc. That would be an absolute blast. There's just nothing better than messin' around with guns! Until then, I have to figure out what is the best value in a good factory rifle that will put meat on the ground. With the time (and money....) I have right now, I'd rather be out hunting and putting down game than struggling to get another 1/4 inch out of a gun. To say nothing of the $$$ involved in good glass, yikes! I am in total awe of the available expertise here on this forum and the willingness of so many to share their expertise. It appears to be a great "brotherhood"! I mean, the concept of true Long Range Hunting is becoming very interesting to me. For me, reaching out effectively to maybe 300 yds is reasonable and productive with the equipment I have. Hunting coyotes is a great school for hunters. I mean, if you can take them out reliability at 2-300 yds, elk and deer are a walk in the park!! The next step I guess would be being able to do the same at 600 and then move on from there after mastering that!

Arizona Mike

 

[Trickymissfit]

actually both rifles can be made into great shooting pieces, and also can be made into lemons. Gunsmiths like Remingtons cause that pretty much the only rifle they know much about. Same way with race cars and probably most anything else. You could with a little research make a list of the good and bad points of each rifle and decide from there.

The main good thing about the Remington is that there are all sorts of things out there to make it better. Both actions are about the same diameter and made of similar steels, so don't get caught up in the action rigidity game. The Savage has caught up with Remington in most everyway, and passed it in many ways. But so have a few other brand names (Tika for one). The Savage is about .150" longer than the Remington (more or less), and this can give you some serious options if you opt for the 1:9 twist barrel. But if 55 grain bullets and smaller are what you shoot then either one will do nicely. Savage has a much faster lock time, but really not as important as most think unless your strictly an offhand shooter. Savages come pillar bedded, but usually not done real well from the factory. Remingtons are pot luck in the bedding department (not uncommon in the industry). Savage uses a barrel nut assembly to mount the barrel and adjust the headspace, while Remington uses the shoulder. I personally prefer the nut, but gunsmiths hate them because they are out of the picture. Engineering wise the nut is superior, and cheaper todo. But the nut also has a down side. The barrel contour is limited in size (about 1" diameter). 98% of us don't worry about this. Both rifles are "push feed", but the bolts are vastly different. The Remington bolt head is solid, and their extractor is a love it or change it affair (I went with an M16 extractor). The Savage bolt head kinda floats and self aligns with the cartridge case head. Remington over the years has had some major issues with their chambers, and savage as reamed a few bad ones as well. The Savage chamber seems to be machined tighter and shorter than the Remington as usual, but both are still factory chambers. The one nice thing about the Savage is the drop in barrel market. Everybody is begining to jump into the market (even Krieger has put out feelers). Pacnor will also sell you a similar setup for a Remington, and with a couple barrel swaps your to the + side.
gary

 

[arizona mike]

Thanks Gary, I learned a lot in that post. I am getting an education! I love my 700 30-06, it's a shooter and maybe the most versitile gun I have. Having said that, I just ordered the 22-250 Savage rifle from the shop, should have it next week. Now I am on the hunt for some decent glass for it. I think I am leaning towards a Leupold 3x9x40 with their new firedot illuminated duplex reticle.

I have a Harris bipod on my other gun (13'-27") and it tilts which is nice keeping the scope plumb but it does not "swivel" (I don't think Harris makes one that will do that) from side to side. I have heard that there are well made bipods that do both well but I haven't a clue who it might be and so far haven't been able to find one. The swival (or swing feature) is a really nice option if you have to track a coyote on a wide swing ('cause you couldn't get 'em stopped!) without having to reset the rifle before a shot. Otherwise the bipod legs sometimes bind up in the dirt and cause a jerk when they try and shift with the ground surface. Can really mess up a shot. If you know of a bipod manufacturer that makes a unit with both features I sure would appreciate their name.
Good shootin' to ya,

Mike

 

[Trickymissfit]

Thanks Gary, I learned a lot in that post. I am getting an education! I love my 700 30-06, it's a shooter and maybe the most versitile gun I have. Having said that, I just ordered the 22-250 Savage rifle from the shop, should have it next week. Now I am on the hunt for some decent glass for it. I think I am leaning towards a Leupold 3x9x40 with their new firedot illuminated duplex reticle.

I have a Harris bipod on my other gun (13'-27") and it tilts which is nice keeping the scope plumb but it does not "swivel" (I don't think Harris makes one that will do that) from side to side. I have heard that there are well made bipods that do both well but I haven't a clue who it might be and so far haven't been able to find one. The swival (or swing feature) is a really nice option if you have to track a coyote on a wide swing ('cause you couldn't get 'em stopped!) without having to reset the rifle before a shot. Otherwise the bipod legs sometimes bind up in the dirt and cause a jerk when they try and shift with the ground surface. Can really mess up a shot. If you know of a bipod manufacturer that makes a unit with both features I sure would appreciate their name.
Good shootin' to ya,

Mike

I hope I caught you in time!!! Savage usually offers two twist rates in the 22-250. A 1:12 twist and a 1:9. Get the 1:9!! You should be able to shoot bullets with at least a .38 B/C, if not a .43 B/C. This will vastly improve the yardage your shooting. If you go with the slow twist try the Sierra #1365 bullet seated .002" off the lands with about 35 grains of IMR 3031 (I actually use 35.5 grains with a Federal match primer). Savage 22 centerfires like Remingtons seem to like the bullet pretty close to the lands. In AZ, I'd start out at 34 grains and work my way upwards as your dealing with a lot more heat than I am.
gary