Reloading suggestions for .338 Lapua

[jlamb]

Like green 788, i too use retumbo (89.0grns) with the 300 grain Sierra Match Kings with .5 minute or better results.

For 250 grain SMKs I use 86.0 grains of H4831SC.

It sounds like it's already doing very well. Flyers 2 inches to the left of a 1.5 inch group at 400 yards can easily be explained by a tiny amount of wind you didn't see (about a 3 mph wind would do it)... or just the trigger pull or bi-pod loading (pushing harder against one leg than the other) could do it... it's hard to say for sure. Seating depth adjustments can reel in flyers in many cases too.

I've used Retumbo in my 110BA, and it has done well. I've shot the 300 grain Sierra Matchkings as fast as 2800 fps (with 92 grains of Retumbo), and that was a very accurate load. But due to pressure signs (flat primer, ejector swipe) I decided to drop the charge to 89.3 grains in Lapua brass, and it works very well also. That gives 2700 fps.

I tried that load at 600 yards just yesterday...

This was the load with a cold clean bore shot. My rifle is at around 120 rounds as of now, still breaking in... and it likes at least 2 fouler shots before it starts 1/2 MOA accuracy. My first fouler shot from a cold clean bore goes about 1/3 MOA low, and slightly right. (see 100 yard target below). I had 3 to 5 mph winds on the 600 yard target, and the low shot in that group was the second shot from a cold clean bore. I don't know why it printed left (wind, or just me)... but low for that shot is the norm in my rifle.

The guys reporting that Retumbo is temperature sensitive are just running their loads too hot. They switch to another powder that won't let them run so fast and they say "voila, this powder isn't as temp sensitive." But Retumbo isn't all that temp sensitive either if you're running sane pressures...

Dan

 

[Texas Republic]

I could definitely use some advice as well for this load, and I believe the same rifle (savage 111 338LM).

I havent been reloading long, and keep realizing how much I dont know from reading these posts. I am basically holding the reloading manual's hand in everything, so customizing a load for my rifle is driving me crazy.

I thought I had a great load for the rifle last week. I had a 3 shot group sharing the same hole at 100 yards. After being tickled pink, I called it a day since it was almost dark and decided to come back a couple days later to dial in my zero. However, the next time I shot the same round, I had a group of 1.25" at 100. The loads should have been the exact same as I did them at the same time. The only thing I can think of is that I somehow switched OALs in the middle. I doubt it, but its possible. My notes for the load listed the OAL from Sierra and Lyman as noted below. Would that make that much of a difference at 100?

Sierra MK 250gr.
H1000 93 gr.
Federal Match Mag. Primer
OAL 3.680 (Sierra Manual) 3.565 (Lyman Manual)

I made a rookie mistake and didnt note which one of the OAL I used.

I am now stair stepping H1000 and R25 through a "quick load" computer program output that someone did for me on this rifle using:

Hornady Brass,
OAL 3.565
and a Sierra MK 250 gr.
(R25 81.5 gr --88.6 gr) (H1000 84gr--90.8gr).

I have finished testing R25 and only found a decent 4 shot group with 81.5gr producing a 3 shot group of .37 MOA and one flyer. All of the other R25 loads were .60 MOA or greater.

I have attempted to figure out what my chamber OAL so that the bullet is all the way in the lands of the rifle. (Sound right?) I followed some advice I read about coloring the bullet of a dummy round with black marker and chambering it to see where it seated on the lands, then taking down the OAL until it rested on the edge of the case rim. I have no idea if that is right, but I THINK it rested at 3.545 OAL. I didnt think I did it correctly since it was so short compared to all of the manual OALs I have seen.

Geez. Its like the blind leading the blind around here. I cant get my shots to consistently group well and I am not sure what I am doing wrong. Very frustrating.
Any advice for me?

 

[green 788]

If you're loading the cartridges in the magazine, per chance, make sure they have plenty of neck tension. If you're using bushing type or collet dies, you can sometimes not get enough neck tension... and the bullets in the cartridges in the mag well can shift under recoil. Varied seating depths will move the POI all over the place...

Cold, clean bore shots will, as a rule, be out of the group to some degree. At this point, my rifle is liking 2 shots from a cold clean bore before settling down to group. The low shot in my 600 yard target above was the 2nd shot from ccb. I put the first shot off paper, just to verify scope setting was correct. So if your barrel is still breaking in (less than 100 shots or so), you should expect some sporadic grouping. That's just how it is with factory barrels... tool marks and other anomalies can give you a fit for a little while, holding copper and fouling. But it'll smooth out, and being a button rifled barrel, it'll shoot in many cases as well as a custom barrel--once it's been broken in. I have half a dozen Savage rifles to base that claim on, by the way.

Click the link at the bottom of my post, and check out my OCW method of load development... this should help you a lot in eliminating flyers and getting to the right charge level with the minimum amount of shots fired (important especially when shooting a dollar's worth of material every time you pull the trigger).

The 300 grain bullets are more closely matched to the Savage's 9 twist... but the 250's should work, in the right recipe.

Holding the loading manual's hand is never a bad idea, by the way.

Dan

 

[Texas Republic]

If you're loading the cartridges in the magazine, per chance, make sure they have plenty of neck tension. If you're using bushing type or collet dies, you can sometimes not get enough neck tension... and the bullets in the cartridges in the mag well can shift under recoil. Varied seating depths will move the POI all over the place...

Cold, clean bore shots will, as a rule, be out of the group to some degree. At this point, my rifle is liking 2 shots from a cold clean bore before settling down to group. The low shot in my 600 yard target above was the 2nd shot from ccb. I put the first shot off paper, just to verify scope setting was correct. So if your barrel is still breaking in (less than 100 shots or so), you should expect some sporadic grouping. That's just how it is with factory barrels... tool marks and other anomalies can give you a fit for a little while, holding copper and fouling. But it'll smooth out, and being a button rifled barrel, it'll shoot in many cases as well as a custom barrel--once it's been broken in. I have half a dozen Savage rifles to base that claim on, by the way.

Click the link at the bottom of my post, and check out my OCW method of load development... this should help you a lot in eliminating flyers and getting to the right charge level with the minimum amount of shots fired (important especially when shooting a dollar's worth of material every time you pull the trigger).

The 300 grain bullets are more closely matched to the Savage's 9 twist... but the 250's should work, in the right recipe.

Holding the loading manual's hand is never a bad idea, by the way.

Dan

I appreciate the helpful reply. I was up late last nite reading your article. Very informative. I plan on doing that very soon. I am not sure what powder the run with though. Perhaps retumbo? I also plan on ordering some 300 smk. I'm just going to use mag length for my OAL as well.
I have been shooting them through the mag and without the mag. I am not sure about the collet. I use the Lyman set for the 338. Should it say on the die or do I need to look for something within it?

 

[green 788]

the Lyman set is what I'm also using, and it works well... that's an FL set (full length).

I'm not a fan or collet or bushing dies... I don't say much about that around here as not to stir up a fuss... But suffice it to say that properly used FL dies will work very well, giving good neck tension, which is what you want.

Dan

 

[orch]

I appreciate the helpful reply. I was up late last nite reading your article. Very informative. I plan on doing that very soon. I am not sure what powder the run with though. Perhaps retumbo? I also plan on ordering some 300 smk. I'm just going to use mag length for my OAL as well.
I have been shooting them through the mag and without the mag. I am not sure about the collet. I use the Lyman set for the 338. Should it say on the die or do I need to look for something within it?

hey there texas... i say try the retumbo with the 300's when you get them... it seems: Savage + 338lapua + ~89gr retumbo + 300gr SMK has been working real well for a bunch of us...
just a word of caution on loading them to mag length, with any round, if you are jamming into the lands with a long oal you may end up getting a couple bullets stuck in the throat. if you chamber a round and then decide not to shoot it and go to eject the unfired round, you might end up spilling powder all over the place and be forced to get the cleaning rod out to tap the projectile outa your barrel (trust me its happened to me )

of course this scenario is less likely when you have good tight neck tension (as green 788 mentioned) but still happens

also if you load those 250's (not sure if that was your intention?) to mag length i am pretty sure you will be jamming them into the lands big time.... ( see previous ...found out when i was playing around with testing 250's that their ogive profile is much different then their 300gr big brothers... )

now i'm not saying jamming into the lands wont yield you a good accurate load... i have a couple loads for some guns that shoot lights out with the bullet jammed into the lands... all of the loads i have found that like being jammed are VLD style bullets ie: bergers... also keep in mind that when you have the bullets jammed you will get higher pressure (more velocity) for lower powder load...

with the more conventional bullets like the SMK's, lapua scenar's, accubond's etc, i have found they do better seated back about 10 to 30 thousandths off the lands.... so i'd say use the technique with the marker and dummy round to find the lands, it works, thats how i have been figuring it out not sure you do the thing with seating the bullet in deeper to the riffling smudges in the marker to the mouth of the case though, i just measure the length of the rifling smudge and take that off the oal of the dummy round... sinclair also makes a good oal guage....

orch

ps. green 788... Quit bashing bushing dies! you're gonna stir me up into a fuss if you keep that up!

 

[green 788]

... I wasn't bashing them, per se... just stating my preference for FL dies in field rifles, that's all.

 

[orch]

Green 788...
Well I guess I can't argue with you at all on the full length dies... Afterall I am using full length bushing dies ....

Oh finally read your info on OCW... Very, very informative! No more ladders for me! Looks like I may be spending a bit of time checking some of my pet loads with your technique! lightbulb

Orch

 

[SidecarFlip]

Interesting thread. I like to take in the knowledge of others. It makes traveling down the reloading road, much less bumpy.....

I have to pose a question, not on projectiles or propellant but brass.

Any preferences regarding 338 LM brass? I know Lapua is over the top expensive but there are other manufacturers. Personal preferences and why would be appreciated.

Candidly, I had some issues with PPU factory rounds and hard primers but I do have 100 so it's 100 empty cases at some point.

As always I appreciate and will heed any suggestions.

 

[green 788]

10-4... thanks, let me know if you have any questions or problems...

Dan

 

[jlamb]

Per Brass; I have tried pretty much them all. Stick with Lapua. They're more expensive but last 2 x as long. I probably have 7 reloadings on mine.

Per Dies; get a full length and neck sizer die. RCBS makes them both. If you really want to get crazy go Redding but make sure you get the shoulder die.

 

[Texas Republic]

I have a couple rookie questions here on reloading 338. I have just ran out of my Sierra MK 250 gr. After reading this thread and seeing the results of the 300 gr SMK, I think I am leaving the 250s for good and going to buy some 300gr. and Retumbo.

My questions are these:

Would it be a waste of time/money going through the OCW program for the 300 gr when so many different shooters and rifles swear by 89gr of Retumbo? I would still plan on doing a very small increment ladder with 89 gr.

I recently neck sized my brass after shooting the 250 gr SMK out of it. Should I full length size them before shooting the 300 gr? I dont see why I should, but thought I would double check.

I assume the OAL will still be the same for the 300 gr bullet? I am having difficulty settling on one.

Rifle is a Savage 111 LRH with 9" twist and 26 inch barrel.

 

[orch]

Hey there...

Well i would say try the OCW work up on the 300's and retumbo... However I can't say I'd blame you for doing a quick ladder up to the 89 gr load to just verify you don't run into pressure signs before 89 then run a couple five shot groups to test it out gun)

As far as oal that depends on how long a lead the throat has... Can't Imagine your savage can be too different then mine... I use 3.702 oal ( I think that leaves me about 20 thou off the lands). If you start low and work your way up, even if my oal is putting u in the lands and I increasing your pressure compared to my gun you should be in the safe zone at low powder weights.

Should be good to go with the necksized brass, no need to full length size just cause you are changing bullets... Brass movement results from the pressure of expanding gas from powder ignition... 60,000 psi pushing a 250gr bullet should affect your brass no different then 60,000 psi pushing a 300 gr bullet...
Keep in mind you will have to eventually full length size that brass further down the road after a number of reload cycles weather you keep loading the 250gr's or switch to the 300's regardless...

Orch

 

[Texas Republic]

So today at the range didn't go so well. I loaded some hornady 225 gr sst last nite using my new RCBS neck sizing die. Instructions were identical to adjusting full sizing dies. However the brass wouldn't hardly eject after firing. A couple didn't. I've shot the load before in the rifle with good results and was just tinkering with the charge by small increments. OAL was the same as well. Only the neck sizing differed. Granted the brass may have shot 250 gr before hand, but was fired from the same chamber. Anyone have ideas?

I also noticed something bad while waiting on my barrel to cool. While practicing my breathing and trigger control, I noticed that each time my pin hit the crosshairs moved. Turns out the base is loose!!! It's not possible to notice this while igniting so much powder. The entire rifle shakes. But I noticed it today. So basically all of my load work doesn't mean much anymore. Guess its ok since I'm switching to 250 gr but still!! I usually mount my own scopes but this time I had a gun smith do it. He's been great until now.