Red dot optic on handguns for LE/Military use

[codyadams]

It has been my experience it is easier to shoot accurately at distance with a RDO, as in 50 yards on a steel target is easy. It does take old iron sight shooters longer to get used to the new wrist position to naturally pick up the dot. With training, I think it is better but for those officers that don't train much it isn't as good as iron sights. I have seen many different brands break the screws when mounting to the plate in the cut out; most suggest purchasing an after market screw for the mount. I've seen more than a few break during a shooting school and the optic fall off.

I wonder if over-torquing could have anything to do with it? Possibly lowering the schear strength of the screws. And I have thought about the training thing too, I think the way I'm gonna try to get our policy set up, is to where if you choose, you can purchase your own red dot for your pistol, not make it a mandatory thing. I think someone willing to invest a couple hundred bucks or more is much more likely to put in the time and effort to be proficient with the red dot and actually train

 

[sea2summit]

Lena Miculek did a great video on folks having an issue finding the dot and how to train out of it. I have a few, I am pretty careful about when I carry one as I have seen them fog (in GA so 700% humidity lays moisture on anything).

Pretty much the gold standard is the RMR, many dot sizes and shapes, I prefer a smaller dot as 6-9 MOA dots start covering the whole dang target for me at about 15 m. They are faster but I'm not convinced the accuracy is on par with good irons, simply because of the dot sizes mostly.

I carried the M17 last deployment and put an RMR on it with good results minus the one day that it rained. Would be pretty embarrassing to have a sight full of rain when you need the sights. not sure how that would translate to duty carry and your conditions.

Good luck, would be interested to hear more about the testing, brands, results, etc.

 

[codyadams]

Lena Miculek did a great video on folks having an issue finding the dot and how to train out of it. I have a few, I am pretty careful about when I carry one as I have seen them fog (in GA so 700% humidity lays moisture on anything).

Pretty much the gold standard is the RMR, many dot sizes and shapes, I prefer a smaller dot as 6-9 MOA dots start covering the whole dang target for me at about 15 m. They are faster but I'm not convinced the accuracy is on par with good irons, simply because of the dot sizes mostly.

I carried the M17 last deployment and put an RMR on it with good results minus the one day that it rained. Would be pretty embarrassing to have a sight full of rain when you need the sights. not sure how that would translate to duty carry and your conditions.

Good luck, would be interested to hear more about the testing, brands, results, etc.

The one downside I have heard about the rmr is window size. Anything can be trained through of course though, one can learn to work with it.

I have been looking at the safariland holsters, they have one that has a hood the covers a rdo on your pistol. I think that would be a good idea, here in Wyoming, many of our deputies are outside in the snow. A rdo with a lense packed with snow wouldn't be very useful! I bet coming in and out of a building, from intense cold to 70° or so may have a fogging affect.....something I will have to check out....

 

[Deputy819]

@codyadams

PM Sent

 

[Rckymtnshooter]

I really like shooting a dot and just about all my new handguns have an optic. The big advantage to shooting a dot is your aiming point and the target are on the same focal plane. You can't beat it for speed.

Co witnessed irons are a must !

The weather could be an issue but a holster with the hood like the Safariland will do a good job keeping the lens clear. I've been in and out from cold to warm temperature and never noticed fogging.

Dry fire is the cure for consistently finding the dot. There's a couple of techniques but the one I like the best is using the top of the optic housing like it's your front sight and driving the top of the housing to your target. The dot rises right up from the bottom of the window and into your vision.

 

[codyadams]

I really like shooting a dot and just about all my new handguns have an optic. The big advantage to shooting a dot is your aiming point and the target are on the same focal plane. You can't beat it for speed.

Co witnessed irons are a must !

The weather could be an issue but a holster with the hood like the Safariland will do a good job keeping the lens clear. I've been in and out from cold to warm temperature and never noticed fogging.

Dry fire is the cure for consistently finding the dot. There's a couple of techniques but the one I like the best is using the top of the optic housing like it's your front sight and driving the top of the housing to your target. The dot rises right up from the bottom of the window and into your vision.

After running mine for a while, I really like it. What has worked best for me is to forget about using any kind of reference point, be it part of the optic, the sights, or anything else, but instead just do the same thing I would do in close range (sub 10 yards) instictive center mass point shooting. If I try to look for the dot like I would a front sight, I have a hard time occasionally, but if I just focus on my target and instinctively point the gun center mass like I was close, without thinking about it, the dot just appears in the window and I can take my shot, and it is faster than trying to shoot irons. The speed advantage increases substantially beyond 10 yards too

 

[new2mud]

Lots of good comments on here already, but the summary from my own experience and others I have talked and trained with are:

- very slightly slower to acquire red dot vs. irons once trained. A common tendency is to "lasso" the gun upon presentation and then have to dip the muzzle end downward to acquire the dot—better to exaggerate presentation with a low muzzle and let it rise in order to acquire the dot faster.

- undisputedly faster and more accurate for non-standard positions.

One class I took had us shooting around and under barricades as well as from shooting over head while laying on our backs on the ground. The dot was significantly faster for accurate fire in all of these unconventional positions. No contest. Lining up iron sights from these positions is just so unnatural compared to where 99.99% of our training is typically done (squared off in a nice athletic stance) that having a single dot aiming point was drastically faster. And much more accurate.

 

[Rckymtnshooter]

After running mine for a while, I really like it. What has worked best for me is to forget about using any kind of reference point, be it part of the optic, the sights, or anything else, but instead just do the same thing I would do in close range (sub 10 yards) instictive center mass point shooting. If I try to look for the dot like I would a front sight, I have a hard time occasionally, but if I just focus on my target and instinctively point the gun center mass like I was close, without thinking about it, the dot just appears in the window and I can take my shot, and it is faster than trying to shoot irons. The speed advantage increases substantially beyond 10 yards too

Yep Cody, you're where you want to end up with gun presentation and dot acquisition. Using the top of the sight housing is for the learning g process of finding the dot consistently.

 

[aOWENc]

I absolutely think that red dots are a good thing on duty handguns, as long as the shooter puts the time in dry firing to be able to pick up the dot every time. I installed a Trijicon RMR on my CZ P10C after having it milled by Jagerwerks and 4000 rounds later in the past year and half and I have yet to have a single issue. The battery lasted over a year before I switched it out, it's tough as nails, and has improved my shooting substantially.
With that said, I would really consider the RMR over the DPP for duty use. The DPP has been known to crack after drops, not something I would worry about for concealed carry, but on an open carried duty weapon it would concern me. Additionally, the dovetail mounts leave something to be desired from what I've seen.
I understand that often times duty weapons are not able to milled for optics due to the department regulations, but having one specifically milled for the optic you're using is the way to go.
If you haven't yet, check out Sage Dynamics on YouTube. He tests every single red dot on the market, and is a fantastic shooter. He also has made a very impressive document with all of the data he has gathered from testing the dots, shooting them, and training others on them. I have linked the document below.

https://1312bba5-e7e7-76e8-1fca-a01bfd3a0b6e.filesusr.com/ugd/7dc128_21de6dec9537496b9c0ff74a0c1370c2.pdf

 

[thewakler]

RDS are likely the way of the future. I competed a few years with irons and switched to dots last year after taking a Modern Samurai class with Jedi. Exceptional. If you're still looking for materials for your department, Primary & Secondary has a lot of LE guys that post information about adopting RDS at their agencies.

 

[codyadams]

I will be running my issue pistol with LDPP at a 40 hour advanced firearm training in a couple weeks, will be putting 1500+ rounds through it, so I plan on making my case to the Sheriff after that, so I have a good foundation for the information I will be presenting. That is, if all goes well.