Realistic 284 winchester velocities

[datcajunshooter]

@ 2.990" the light for cal bullets are going to barely engage the case neck

Or have a long jump @ 2.800"

Something to consider

You may have to run 140gr-160gr for 2.990" I don't know, don't have one or any real experience with that.

Just looking to help if I can

For visual reference heres a 150 Badlands BD2 next to a 175 ELDX.

That bullet is beautiful.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Ive always read n heard that RL17 was very fast but also temp sensitive. What are your experiences on the temp stability?

I always shoot my rifles in the temps I'm going to hunt with them in. Never had an issue with it. I'd be concerned if I shot the rifle in 80° temps and hunted in 20° temps. Again, never had an accuracy issue with that powder from temp sensitivity.

 

[Roughrice]

Yes, obviously I will have to run a shorter COAL with the shorter bullets. The 140 grain HPBT are gamekings. I loaded them for a buddy in his 280 running 2925 and they are quite impressive on deer. He took an Elk with the same same load. We had never seen any feeding problems with the bullet though.

Those 140 HPBT and 160 HPBT Game Kings are the tits for limited COAL!
165 HPBT work in Short Action 300 SAUM as well!

 

[AZShooter]

The 1 1/2 degree aka 1 degree 30 min, throat angle is the one used by many modern chamberings like: 6.5-284, 7 PRC, 300 PRC, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6 Creedmoor, and 338 Norma. The list goes on.

What was suggested to me is that this throat angle is more likely to help with accuracy when using the VLD high BC type bullets.

===================================


datcajunshooter I tried to PM you. There is no popup for you. Figure you need more posts. I will add the late Steve Timm's comments and other pertinent information here:

Updated 5/29/19


The 120Ballistic is one heck of a tough bullet. I've killed bull moose, a good number of mature bull elk, big-honking Northern Alberta whitetail & mulies and quite a few American pronghorn with the 120. Maybe thirty++ kills in all and though the 7-08 Ackley (7SGLC) and my .270 Ackley Improved

Every single one of my 120Ballistic kills have been one-shot kills. The only 120s I've ever recovered were from two very-mature 6X6 bull elk … one at 375-ish in the vertical spine and one dead-center through the shoulders at 450-ish.

The two recovered bullets are around here somewhere in this mess. If memory serves, the bullets opened to .750"-.800" and both expanded bullets weighed about 100-grains.

I've told the story multiple times, in this forum, about how the 120Ballistic came to be. So I won't bore you.

Trust me, the 120Ballistic is all the 7mm bullet I've used for many, many years and it's always proved to be all the danged bullet I'll ever need … or use.

God Bless,

Steve

Originally Posted by TxHunter80
I've always used the 140s. I know the 120 is beefed up a little. Has anybody noticed any difference in the end result?


Steve: Yep, the 120 penetrates deeper … noticeably.

Blessings,

gun author John Barsness:	The 120 ballistic tip is one of the BT's with a VERY heavy jacket, comprising around 2/3 of the total bullet weight. Generally these models retain at least 60% of their original weight, even if they lose the lead core. This is apparently what baffles some hunters, because they've long believed any bullet that loses the core, won't penetrate deeply. But all the "hunting" BT's (as opposed to varmint models) have far heavier jackets than other cup-and-core bullets. Those I've recovered retain around 50% of their weight, give or take 10%--about like the Hornady Interlocks I've recovered.

Steve Timm: To summarize: I started using the Nosler .284" 120-grain Ballistic Tip several years ago. A friend of mine who worked at Nosler at the time told me that the bullet was a total flop with varmint hunters (duhhhhh ), but that the rifle metal silhouette shooters used a zillion of them. Nosler got complaints from the rifle silhouette shooters because the bullet was too frangible to consistently tip over the 500 meter ram. Because the rifle silhouette use was seemingly the only market for the 7-120, Nosler made the jacket considerably heavier than the original design. This change was intended to satisfy the silhouette shooters complaints, but an unintended consequence was that they unwittingly made one heck of a big game bullet. The first I heard of it was my friend at Nosler was shooting California wild boars through both shoulders (both gristle plates) with the 120 in a 7-08. Full penetration and very dead pigs!!! Please bear in mind that the silhouette story above is purely legend, but if you will split a 7-120, you will find the jacket is waaaay heavy. Actually, it resembles the .338 BTs, which are heavy and are sure killers on larger critters. Down to your question, "What has Dogzapper shot with the 120s?" Answer: A bit of stuff. I've killed a couple of 6X6 bull elk. Not big ones, but around 290 B&C and decent bodies for five year olds. One was shot from above, looking away at 375 yards, the bullet entered the spine behind the shoulder and was found under the hide of the chest. Expanded to .75" or so and the recovered bullet weighs about 100 grains (it's around here someplace and it's a big lead and copper ball. Second bull was 400ish. Not to be fancy, I shot the bull through the center of the shoulder. The bullet broke both shouders and was recovered under the far hide. The bullet is identical to the first bull's bullet. Both of these were killed with the 7-08 Ackley. Other kills with the gun and bullet were a large Montana mule buck at way too close, peeking though a juniper tree at first light. Horns were big and so was he and I had to hit the only open thing I could see ... an eyeball. And I did. Bullet went clear through the head and didn't break the skull. Exited leaving a one-inch hole. Another Montana mulie was probably the largest-bodied mule I've ever shot in Montana. He was aged at 9 1/2 years in Great Falls game stop (by a PhD professor of big game). I knew the buck intimately and had not been able to kill him the three previous years. I caught him in a herd of over 100 does. Saw him at over 400 yards in the dusk and made a running open field stalk ... closed to 205 yards and shot him a little too high behind the shoulder. Spined him, dead right there, bullet fully penetrated leaving a 2" exit. There's a few more deer with the 7-08 and some antelope, but the tale is always the same. I've also used the 120 in the .280 Ackley @ 3,370 fps. Shot a moose one morning with it. Range was 91 yards and the three year old dumbly stood in the middle of a farm two-track. I shot him under the chin, slightly to my right, trying to break the spine upon exit. One or both carotids were broken, C-2 vertabrae was totally missing and the bullet exited leaving a two-inch hole. For all I know, it may still be in low orbit of the earth. Mickey Moose died right there. I've shot many antelope with the bullet in the .280 Ackley. Ranges from 100 to over 500 yards. Never missed a goat with it and never shot twice. Total penetration from most any angle, except for one old and large buck that I shot fully in the chest and recovered the bullet (deadliest mushroom in the woods) right next to his bunghole. I guess you'd call it full-penetration of a goat, minus one-eighth inch. Lotsa mule deer and whitetails. Normally full penetration. Don't remember ever recovering a bullet from a deer. Exits holes usually run one to two inches. You ask about maximum recommended impact velocity on deer and elk. Heck I don't know, I just go out there and kill stuff. I don't know that I'd recommend it on elk of moose. I have a habit of hunting deer with the tags for big critters also in my pocket. I carry 120s and sometimes magic happens. If I was purposely hunting elk or moose only, I'd probably up-bullet to a 139 Hornady Interlocked in both the 7SGLC and the .280 Ackley. Or for really big stuff, like the Asian water buffalo I killed a couple of years ago, I used the 154 Hornady Interlocked in my .280. I severed both carotids and created a buffalo blood fountain that was quite beautiful. Anyway, I've written way too much. Use it or don't, it's not a matter of honor or pride. I use the 120 and am not prejudiced and find it kills the schit out of stuff without ruining a lot of meat. In truth, the 120 Ballistic is considerably "harder" and in my experience will out-penetrate the 140 Ballistic Tip. I also find the 139 Hornady Interlocked (plain, cheap cup-n-core) to be one heck of a great bullet. Those of us who love medium sized 7mm cartridges are truly blessed with a plethora of excellent big game bullets. Steve

The 120 nbt is a very stout bullet it was redesigned by Gale Root of Nosler's Engineering staff. He basically thickened the bottom half of the bullet jacket because many of the handgun silhouette shooters whined that it was too explosive and did not give the dwell time on target to transfer the energy to knock down steel targets every time cleanly. Because of the tough jacket it expands slowly on meat and usually exits.

 

[98s1lightning]

This is the Sierra 140gr I'm talking #1912

.284 Cal 140 Gr. HPBT GameKing - Sierra Bullets

Customers have been asking us for years to make a 6.5 mm and 7 mm version of our very popular 30 caliber 165 grain HPBT GameKing and we are happy to say we have fulfilled that request. Just like their 30 caliber cousin, these bullets will be ideal for midsized game with standard and magnum...

www.sierrabullets.com

Not as interesting as the Badlands 150 you shared, or the cool stories surrounding the Nosler 120 BT. But interesting enough!

 

[datcajunshooter]

Those 140 HPBT and 160 HPBT Game Kings are the tits for limited COAL!
165 HPBT work in Short Action 300 SAUM as well!

I can't wait to try them. I know they are going to be good.

 

[datcajunshooter]

This is the Sierra 140gr I'm talking #1912

.284 Cal 140 Gr. HPBT GameKing - Sierra Bullets

Customers have been asking us for years to make a 6.5 mm and 7 mm version of our very popular 30 caliber 165 grain HPBT GameKing and we are happy to say we have fulfilled that request. Just like their 30 caliber cousin, these bullets will be ideal for midsized game with standard and magnum...

www.sierrabullets.com

Not as interesting as the Badlands 150 you shared, or the cool stories surrounding the Nosler 120 BT. But interesting enough!

Yes! Those are the ones.

 

[98s1lightning]

Well

@ 2.800" COAL

Speer #1616 TNT 110gr :
NOT COMPATIBLE,
the bullet ogive does not work the bullet falls through case neck, ran out of straight shank

Speer 115gr (Wide HP)
NOT COMPATIBLE
Wide HP 0.125" @ "meplat" failure to feed and jams, makes it out and up out of mag BUT NOT into chamber

So much for those (2) bullet options in a SA
Heads up before you buy and try!!!

If you didn't see that,
Note to self
In your rifle it may not be an issue

 

[datcajunshooter]

The 1 1/2 degree aka 1 degree 30 min, throat angle is the one used by many modern chamberings like: 6.5-284, 7 PRC, 300 PRC, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6 Creedmoor, and 338 Norma. The list goes on.

What was suggested to me is that this throat angle is more likely to help with accuracy when using the VLD high BC type bullets.

===================================


datcajunshooter I tried to PM you. There is no popup for you. Figure you need more posts. I will add the late Steve Timm's comments and other pertinent information here:

Updated 5/29/19


The 120Ballistic is one heck of a tough bullet. I've killed bull moose, a good number of mature bull elk, big-honking Northern Alberta whitetail & mulies and quite a few American pronghorn with the 120. Maybe thirty++ kills in all and though the 7-08 Ackley (7SGLC) and my .270 Ackley Improved

Every single one of my 120Ballistic kills have been one-shot kills. The only 120s I've ever recovered were from two very-mature 6X6 bull elk … one at 375-ish in the vertical spine and one dead-center through the shoulders at 450-ish.

The two recovered bullets are around here somewhere in this mess. If memory serves, the bullets opened to .750"-.800" and both expanded bullets weighed about 100-grains.

I've told the story multiple times, in this forum, about how the 120Ballistic came to be. So I won't bore you.

Trust me, the 120Ballistic is all the 7mm bullet I've used for many, many years and it's always proved to be all the danged bullet I'll ever need … or use.

God Bless,

Steve

Originally Posted by TxHunter80
I've always used the 140s. I know the 120 is beefed up a little. Has anybody noticed any difference in the end result?


Steve: Yep, the 120 penetrates deeper … noticeably.

Blessings,

gun author John Barsness:	The 120 ballistic tip is one of the BT's with a VERY heavy jacket, comprising around 2/3 of the total bullet weight. Generally these models retain at least 60% of their original weight, even if they lose the lead core. This is apparently what baffles some hunters, because they've long believed any bullet that loses the core, won't penetrate deeply. But all the "hunting" BT's (as opposed to varmint models) have far heavier jackets than other cup-and-core bullets. Those I've recovered retain around 50% of their weight, give or take 10%--about like the Hornady Interlocks I've recovered.

Steve Timm: To summarize: I started using the Nosler .284" 120-grain Ballistic Tip several years ago. A friend of mine who worked at Nosler at the time told me that the bullet was a total flop with varmint hunters (duhhhhh ), but that the rifle metal silhouette shooters used a zillion of them. Nosler got complaints from the rifle silhouette shooters because the bullet was too frangible to consistently tip over the 500 meter ram. Because the rifle silhouette use was seemingly the only market for the 7-120, Nosler made the jacket considerably heavier than the original design. This change was intended to satisfy the silhouette shooters complaints, but an unintended consequence was that they unwittingly made one heck of a big game bullet. The first I heard of it was my friend at Nosler was shooting California wild boars through both shoulders (both gristle plates) with the 120 in a 7-08. Full penetration and very dead pigs!!! Please bear in mind that the silhouette story above is purely legend, but if you will split a 7-120, you will find the jacket is waaaay heavy. Actually, it resembles the .338 BTs, which are heavy and are sure killers on larger critters. Down to your question, "What has Dogzapper shot with the 120s?" Answer: A bit of stuff. I've killed a couple of 6X6 bull elk. Not big ones, but around 290 B&C and decent bodies for five year olds. One was shot from above, looking away at 375 yards, the bullet entered the spine behind the shoulder and was found under the hide of the chest. Expanded to .75" or so and the recovered bullet weighs about 100 grains (it's around here someplace and it's a big lead and copper ball. Second bull was 400ish. Not to be fancy, I shot the bull through the center of the shoulder. The bullet broke both shouders and was recovered under the far hide. The bullet is identical to the first bull's bullet. Both of these were killed with the 7-08 Ackley. Other kills with the gun and bullet were a large Montana mule buck at way too close, peeking though a juniper tree at first light. Horns were big and so was he and I had to hit the only open thing I could see ... an eyeball. And I did. Bullet went clear through the head and didn't break the skull. Exited leaving a one-inch hole. Another Montana mulie was probably the largest-bodied mule I've ever shot in Montana. He was aged at 9 1/2 years in Great Falls game stop (by a PhD professor of big game). I knew the buck intimately and had not been able to kill him the three previous years. I caught him in a herd of over 100 does. Saw him at over 400 yards in the dusk and made a running open field stalk ... closed to 205 yards and shot him a little too high behind the shoulder. Spined him, dead right there, bullet fully penetrated leaving a 2" exit. There's a few more deer with the 7-08 and some antelope, but the tale is always the same. I've also used the 120 in the .280 Ackley @ 3,370 fps. Shot a moose one morning with it. Range was 91 yards and the three year old dumbly stood in the middle of a farm two-track. I shot him under the chin, slightly to my right, trying to break the spine upon exit. One or both carotids were broken, C-2 vertabrae was totally missing and the bullet exited leaving a two-inch hole. For all I know, it may still be in low orbit of the earth. Mickey Moose died right there. I've shot many antelope with the bullet in the .280 Ackley. Ranges from 100 to over 500 yards. Never missed a goat with it and never shot twice. Total penetration from most any angle, except for one old and large buck that I shot fully in the chest and recovered the bullet (deadliest mushroom in the woods) right next to his bunghole. I guess you'd call it full-penetration of a goat, minus one-eighth inch. Lotsa mule deer and whitetails. Normally full penetration. Don't remember ever recovering a bullet from a deer. Exits holes usually run one to two inches. You ask about maximum recommended impact velocity on deer and elk. Heck I don't know, I just go out there and kill stuff. I don't know that I'd recommend it on elk of moose. I have a habit of hunting deer with the tags for big critters also in my pocket. I carry 120s and sometimes magic happens. If I was purposely hunting elk or moose only, I'd probably up-bullet to a 139 Hornady Interlocked in both the 7SGLC and the .280 Ackley. Or for really big stuff, like the Asian water buffalo I killed a couple of years ago, I used the 154 Hornady Interlocked in my .280. I severed both carotids and created a buffalo blood fountain that was quite beautiful. Anyway, I've written way too much. Use it or don't, it's not a matter of honor or pride. I use the 120 and am not prejudiced and find it kills the schit out of stuff without ruining a lot of meat. In truth, the 120 Ballistic is considerably "harder" and in my experience will out-penetrate the 140 Ballistic Tip. I also find the 139 Hornady Interlocked (plain, cheap cup-n-core) to be one heck of a great bullet. Those of us who love medium sized 7mm cartridges are truly blessed with a plethora of excellent big game bullets. Steve

The 120 nbt is a very stout bullet it was redesigned by Gale Root of Nosler's Engineering staff. He basically thickened the bottom half of the bullet jacket because many of the handgun silhouette shooters whined that it was too explosive and did not give the dwell time on target to transfer the energy to knock down steel targets every time cleanly. Because of the tough jacket it expands slowly on meat and usually exits.

That's very interesting. I would have never known that. I appreciate the information. I think I'm going to have to get some. Some 120 at 3400 sound flaaaaaaat.

 

[98s1lightning]

Can you measure one of those #1912 Sierra 140gr HPBT Game kings w calipers?

Curious how they compare to the
150gr Nosler PT bullet length 1.220"

 

[Roughrice]

I can measure when I get back from hunting.
They are great for keeping the bullet out of powder space and still get close to the lands in 2.840" magazines.
You may not have a problem with 2.990"

 

[Roughrice]

Sierra #1912 Game King 140 HPBT measures 1.180" OAL and .681" base to ogive …. Very consistently.

Also, Nosler 150 BT measures 1.325" OAL and .755" base to ogive.

The AA4350 is only a tad bit slower than H according to what I've read so it should work great with the 140's and 150's.

That RL17 will be the hot rod!

 

[Wilderness Blacktail]

Not as interesting as the Badlands 150 you shared, or the cool stories surrounding the Nosler 120 BT. But interesting enough!

yes i know, just posted it for a visual length reference. All the sleek 140-150 monos are long and affect powder space capacity as much as the heavier 175s n such.

 

[datcajunshooter]

Sierra #1912 Game King 140 HPBT measures 1.180" OAL and .681" base to ogive …. Very consistently.

Also, Nosler 150 BT measures 1.325" OAL and .755" base to ogive.

The AA4350 is only a tad bit slower than H according to what I've read so it should work great with the 140's and 150's.

That RL17 will be the hot rod!

I'm hoping that the 140 HPBT will be the ONES. Being short action I was hoping for 2950-3k probably a little too optimistic in a 22 in barrel. But those were my hopes.