Real advantage to custom

[Boss Hoss]

I know two things about this comment.

First, I agree that there's not much demand for 70's. Most customers don't know what they can do. Most 'smiths who don't know nor even care what they can do, either.

Second, nobody's build a one hole rifle to date that's a one holer all the time. The best of them shoot cloverleafs at short range (300 and under), under half MOA at medium range (301 to 600 yards and under 2/3 MOA at long range (601 to 1000 yards). I'm not referring to the smallest groups they'll shoot which any one will do a small percentage of the time. Accuracy is what one can count on all the time and nobody's built a rifle that does that. Well, maybe they have if the target's no more than 50 to 60 yards down range.

However, if one shoots enough bullets in a target, there'll be one hole in the paper but its size may not impress folks.

Sorry Bart but you have the wrong guy building your rifles is all I can say. My sporters are built EXACTLY like my competition rifles (just not glued in and with smaller tubes) and I can go into the finite detail from exactly how the barrel is indicated in to how the dies are made (watched and helped build more than a few of them). It is possible to build guns that shoot every bit as good as they look---have watched hundreds of rifles being built over the years in my Smiths shop here and in Colorado.

The biggest part of shooting a rifle accurately is of course the rifle itself HOWEVER if one does not have the equipment, knowledge or skill to shoot it to its full potential then that is another story. For the most part when someone tells me how great a sporter will shoot I can tell to a great extent if they know what the hell they are talking about when they are in the process of putting the rifle on the rest to shoot it (really love the guys that leave the swivel on the front).

You do have a point in that some bullets will not settle completely until they get 250 to 300 yds and if the shooter is good enough to understand what is happening and proficient in his skill sets he or she will know that 80fps deviation from high to low is going to kill your group with vertical dispersion out past 750 and esp at 1K. This of course assumes the shooter is making perfect condition calls so that he knows what is going on rather than getting lucky and putting 2 or 3 close together. This is a subject that could go on forever but you get the idea.

 

[Bart B]

Sorry Bart but you have the wrong guy building your rifles is all I can say.

That's the kind of comment I expect from people who don't understand what's important for accuracy in a rifle and why it is. I don't know of anyone whose built more accurate shoulder fired rifles than my 'smith. A few might equal what his stuff does, but none are better.

Name a smith who has built rifles that will consistantly shoot 600 yard groups under 1.5 inches when properly tested for accuracy. Or 40 shots at 600 all in a single group under 2 inches. Name another who puts together a barreled action that'll shoot 30 consecutive shots inside 6 inches at 1000 yards, starting with a cold barrel. All on Win. 70 actions that have only their bolt lugs lapped plus receiver and bolt face squared up.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Bart---Looks like you have the best Smith on the planet..... Good for you. How many HOF points do you have? Your Smith should be the primary builder of Competition rifles of some of the people I know. Tell me who he or she is and I will forward his credentials to a few people I know who compete and if this is something that he stands by he will be a very busy man indeed. To make the statement "A few might equal what his stuff does, but none are better" is a very bold and forthright statement that I have never seen before! I will contact him personally and have him build me a rifle that will shoot to the levels you have committed to.

Now just to eliminate any questions about my shooting ability my Smith who has impeccable qualifications as a shooter will test this rifle as well to verify the capabilities you have committed him to. This is something that I look forward very much to testing!

 

[royinidaho]

This thread is getting quite cute.

My initial post didn't include include my first thought regarding the "Real advantage to custom" I have only 2 custom rifles. When I shoot and show them I do so with "Pride"! And I have no shortage of pride. My biggest problems in life are cause by to much pride and oh ever so much humility

Thus the real advantage must be pride.

 

[Bart B]

Bart---How many HOF points do you have?

I don't have any Humble Old Fart points, or Hyper Obnoxious Feelings, or whatever "HOF" points are. Without them, I doubt I have any credibility with you. My 'smith doesn't have any of those points, either. Nor do any of his customers as far as I know. But it sounds like something related to benchrest competition. You have to get out of the "benchrest" way of thinking before you'll understand that theirs is not the only way to super accurate rifles. Until then, it's a waste of my time and my 'smiths to give you his name.

 

[Boss Hoss]

I don't have any Humble Old Fart points, or Hyper Obnoxious Feelings, or whatever "HOF" points are. Without them, I doubt I have any credibility with you. My 'smith doesn't have any of those points, either. Nor do any of his customers as far as I know. But it sounds like something related to benchrest competition. You have to get out of the "benchrest" way of thinking before you'll understand that theirs is not the only way to super accurate rifles. Until then, it's a waste of my time and my 'smiths to give you his name.

Sorry but we have a saying in Texas about people like you! All Hat No Cattle! Figured that you were blowing hot air now that is confimed. Funny how money walks and BS talks. Just thought your Smith would like to have some new clients.

 

[rscott5028]

This thread is getting quite cute.

My initial post didn't include include my first thought regarding the "Real advantage to custom" I have only 2 custom rifles. When I shoot and show them I do so with "Pride"! And I have no shortage of pride. My biggest problems in life are cause by to much pride and oh ever so much humility

Thus the real advantage must be pride.

Roy,

I'm right there with you.

I am very proud of the rifles I've built with my son. This past weekend, some guy with a custom rifle shooting at a target 18" away at 300 yards was putting holes all over my son's target. Even if he was aiming at my son's target by accident, he had no group. ...just 6 or 8 random shots over a 10" area.

So, we moved out to 500 yds and my son shot a 2" 5 shot group and was ringing the 4" steel swingers right and left.

Hitting what you aim at be it paper, vermin, meat, or trophies yeilds a sense of accomplishment.
Doing so accurately with handloads you've developed is more of the same.
Spec'ing your own custom to do the job is even better.
And, getting the job done with your son on the trigger and a rifle you built yourself is priceless.

I can't wait for deer season to open up.

-- richard

 

[Boss Hoss]

This thread is getting quite cute.

My initial post didn't include include my first thought regarding the "Real advantage to custom" I have only 2 custom rifles. When I shoot and show them I do so with "Pride"! And I have no shortage of pride. My biggest problems in life are cause by to much pride and oh ever so much humility

Thus the real advantage must be pride.

Yes---I love mine and am going to pick up my newest Wood sporter in 280 Ack very shortly! Cannot wait to get it in my hands. The first one I have built with a Lijla so it will be fun seeing how it shoots!

 

[Bart B]

Sorry but we have a saying in Texas about people like you! All Hat No Cattle! Figured that you were blowing hot air now that is confimed. Funny how money walks and BS talks. Just thought your Smith would like to have some new clients.

I expected that from you. That's easier for you to blast my directioin instead of doing what I asked, which was:

"You have to get out of the "benchrest" way of thinking before you'll understand that theirs is not the only way to super accurate rifles. Until then, it's a waste of my time and my 'smiths to give you his name. "

You didn't make any move in that direction. My 'smith wouldn't guarantee any of his stuff; he never has because he doesn't load the ammo shot in them nor does he test them. It's all up to the shooter. But he's never let any body down. His rifles have won more high power matches setting more records along the way save perhaps David Tubb.

 

[Edd]

If you are talking about pre 64 style actions, I'd like to know who that model 70 gunsmith is. I'm considering a custom rifle built on one of those actions.

 

[Boss Hoss]

I expected that from you. That's easier for you to blast my directioin instead of doing what I asked, which was:

"You have to get out of the "benchrest" way of thinking before you'll understand that theirs is not the only way to super accurate rifles. Until then, it's a waste of my time and my 'smiths to give you his name. "

You didn't make any move in that direction. My 'smith wouldn't guarantee any of his stuff; he never has because he doesn't load the ammo shot in them nor does he test them. It's all up to the shooter. But he's never let any body down. His rifles have won more high power matches setting more records along the way save perhaps David Tubb.

Unfortunately there are people such as yourself who have no idea what little things make the difference between wood and no wood. My Smith does because he is one of the best shooters on the planet as well (that is a fact not opinion). Fortunately for me he also my good friend who has shown me not only the specifics of what makes a rifle accurate but how to load the ammunition for and to fire the rifle accurately. Have had mentoring from many others as well however, the subject of excellence is something I am always relentless in my pursuit of. No stone is left unturned ever.

Just next time don't try and blow smoke up my rear and then back peddle faster than a politician when your bluff is called----you may be able to wear the hat and fool some people but there are still no cattle. I did not just fall off of the turnip truck and can usually smell BS from a distance but in your case it was easy because you pulled down your pants and showed everyone your rear.

 

[Bart B]

My Smith does because he is one of the best shooters on the planet as well (that is a fact not opinion). Fortunately for me he also my good friend who has shown me not only the specifics of what makes a rifle accurate but how to load the ammunition for and to fire the rifle accurately.

Your 'smith seems no different than mine. Heres the results of what he's made for me and the ammo I loaded to do it. Note these groups were fired with either full length sized or brand spankin' new cases.

Full length sized cases in a SAAMI spec chamber:

15 shots each group with twice fired full length sized cases all inside the 10-inch X ring, 15 with new unfired cases, all 30 shots fired alternately so each group represents virtually how each load will perform for 30 shots:

And a fall 1991 issue of Handloader Magazine has a 600 yard 20 shot group fired in a pre-'64 Win 70 action using brand new .308 Win. cases with powder charges having 3/10ths grain spread and bullet runout of 3/1000ths. It's about 2.7 inches in diameter for all 20 shots. From another 'smith who built many super accurate Win 70's.

You got something that does better than this? Show me.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Your 'smith seems no different than mine. Heres the results of what he's made for me and the ammo I loaded to do it. Note these groups were fired with either full length sized or brand spankin' new cases.

Full length sized cases in a SAAMI spec chamber:

15 shots each group with twice fired full length sized cases all inside the 10-inch X ring, 15 with new unfired cases, all 30 shots fired alternately so each group represents virtually how each load will perform for 30 shots:

And a fall 1991 issue of Handloader Magazine has a 600 yard 20 shot group fired in a pre-'64 Win 70 action using brand new .308 Win. cases with powder charges having 3/10ths grain spread and bullet runout of 3/1000ths. It's about 2.7 inches in diameter for all 20 shots. From another 'smith who built many super accurate Win 70's.

You got something that does better than this? Show me.

Those are very nice groups groups indeed. My Smith for SS sporters and competition rifles is Speedy Gonzalez who is yours? I would like to have him build a rifle for me. I do not take pictures of my targets sorry -- I can post a pic of some wood that I have won (State Score not group IBS Championship etc) but that is about it.

Please post the name of your Smith---if the group at 1K is indeed factual he and I need to talk. If someone knows who this Smith is please PM me he may have a rifle to build..

 

[royinidaho]

Here's where this thread could go drift an infinite number of directions!

Lovin' it....proof is in the puddin'

A smith with the knack! Which is most probably the magic touch one has for a certain set of conditions. The Master's Touch, many have it, on different instruments.

Keep in mind the shooter has to have a different "knack" to do honor to the smith's craftsmanship.

Check this from the above post: "600 yard 20 shot group fired in a pre-'64 Win 70 action using brand new .308 Win. cases with powder charges having 3/10ths grain spread and bullet runout of 3/1000ths. It's about 2.7 inches in diameter for all 20 shots."

The pic and these few words sum up the compulsive tendencies of many. $1000 dollar, 0.0005 grain accurate scales, and on and on.

Regarding my "custom" rigs, its just put the load together that the smith uses for accuracy verification, sight in, develop drop chart and start harvesting. That's the value of "Custom", if the smith has the "knack".

The problem is that shooting them is so euphoric I tend to wear them out.

Great thread!!!!! Even better once you two bone heads (said respectfully) get to communicating. Won't be too long until you're sharing a beer.