Re: Heart Shot Photos

[Konrad]

Re: Heart Shot Photos​

Not too many folks (including most hunters) are willing to freely admit that being the apex predator is "fun" and fundamentally satisfying at a level normally not touched upon during our everyday lives. It has been hard wired into our make up for thousands of years and only more recently suppressed by society. If we were not such successful predators, Cro-Magnon man would still be the dominant hominid walking the earth.

Our civilization blanches (as it rightly should) at the gore of mangled organs and flesh. If it did not, we would not be living within a civilization per say but more a violence dominated plane where every conflict, both major and minor, would be sorted out by death-dealing blows resulting in piles of carcasses over debates regarding who should have the best parking spot at the grocery store.

On the one hand, I too am hesitant to ingest a photo diet of severed and bloody limbs, organs and bodies. (Hopefully, that means I am at least somewhat civilized too.)
One the other hand, I understand all of that destruction goes hand in hand with one of my passions in life…hunting.

Perhaps the overriding reason (beyond my underlying revulsion to guts…I just can't seem to keep that civilized guy at bay) for my not participating in these displays of mutilation is my hope of converting another non-hunter to my way of life. No one can persuade me that photographic works such as these (livers perforated with 375 H&H caliber bullets are also quite dramatic) can aid our cause in the promotion of the hunting sports to the uninitiated.

My suggestion is for all of our benefit:
If you must make photo records of the brutal reality of hunting, please keep them private. At the very minimum, keep them for display to your fellow non-closeted apex predator friends. I envision them now, pointed teeth, drooling at their mouths, beating clubs on the ground and grunting around a campfire jostling for the best position for the first piece of roasting heart.
Don't post them to Facebook or some other web-site so they can be used as anti-hunting propaganda by hairy women with tattoos and pierced bodies.

Speaking of hairy women with tattoos and pierced bodies…Wasn't there a time when those were the very girls who were the most proud of our hunting successes?

My, how times have changed!

 

[Alfred Crouch]

Always good to hear the opinion of others.

 

[Korhil78]

Yup..you know what opinions are like...everyone has one!

 

[FEENIX]

Yup..you know what opinions are like...everyone has one!

OK, since you had to go there, here it is ...



gun)

 

[Outlaw6.0]

As in every debate, there will always be two sides. Opinions, when wielded correctly, are a useful tool, affording us conversation & as previously stated utilization of our hard wired penchant for debate.

There is plausible reasoning why conversations/debate touching on the ethical/moral compass of our sport is generally frowned upon. Hopefully, we can avert that taking place here.... maybe

I do applaud the OP for taking the higher path while expressing their concern; their hypothesis definitely does highlight an area necessary of analysis. While I do agree with Harry Callahan, that opinions usually suffer from a certain odor J I believe part of the original post does hold validity.


On the other hand, the original post, in the context it was delivered, is derivative of a blanket policy. Blanket policies, while constructed with the best of intentions, are usually not conducive to progress (for lack of a better term).


The progress of which I speak is the refinement & improvement of the equipment & technique sportsmen use in the field. While I do agree that Random grotesque photos posted all over the interwebs displayed as nothing more than a self-promoted pat on the back is generally NOT in the best interest of sportsmen.


On the other hand, I recall various threads (pictures included) on this forum that have not only created much discussion but have enhanced the overall knowledge of the more novice shooter. Photographic evidence used in a supporting role during a discussion related to terminal ballistics (when used correctly) can only bolster the argument involved. We can & do learn from what we see inside our quarry & it is my belief that we owe it to the game to share our findings with our fellow sportsmen.


Internal ballistics is a science, hypothesis' need to be tested & findings should be reported. Would Berger bullets enjoy the reputation afforded them today if we as responsible sportsmen chose to not share our tests/photos & experiences? I don't think so. What about the smaller companies like Matrix or Cutting Edge? Companies such as these rely on word of mouth from knowledgeable sportsmen as a rudimentary endorsement for the product as well as a basis for improvement of the end product.

Is it necessary to post a gut pile on Face Book? No, that's akin to dog fighting behind the local PETA building. You're asking for trouble. Does that necessitate non-disclosure across the board? Absolutely not. Places such as LRH not only accept but, on certain occasion encourage dispersion & for good reason.

The fear of offending someone in the caustic world of PC appeasement is understandable however, a small dose of common sense with a discretion chaser is more than enough to rectify the situation.
In this case, a blanket policy is not the "best policy". There is more than enough averment to show strong argument for both sides of this debate. We owe it to our quarry to know not only what works, but what works better & how to use it more effectively. We owe it to our camaraderie to share our lessons learned; thus enhancing the capability of all sportsmen. The increased capability & lethality of our brethren is the champion of what may be construed as ethics as its finest.


But hey, that's just my opinion.......


t

 

[Boman]

Extremely well spoken Outlaw +1000

 

[Korhil78]

As in every debate, there will always be two sides. Opinions, when wielded correctly, are a useful tool, affording us conversation & as previously stated utilization of our hard wired penchant for debate.

There is plausible reasoning why conversations/debate touching on the ethical/moral compass of our sport is generally frowned upon. Hopefully, we can avert that taking place here.... maybe

I do applaud the OP for taking the higher path while expressing their concern; their hypothesis definitely does highlight an area necessary of analysis. While I do agree with Harry Callahan, that opinions usually suffer from a certain odor J I believe part of the original post does hold validity.


On the other hand, the original post, in the context it was delivered, is derivative of a blanket policy. Blanket policies, while constructed with the best of intentions, are usually not conducive to progress (for lack of a better term).


The progress of which I speak is the refinement & improvement of the equipment & technique sportsmen use in the field. While I do agree that Random grotesque photos posted all over the interwebs displayed as nothing more than a self-promoted pat on the back is generally NOT in the best interest of sportsmen.


On the other hand, I recall various threads (pictures included) on this forum that have not only created much discussion but have enhanced the overall knowledge of the more novice shooter. Photographic evidence used in a supporting role during a discussion related to terminal ballistics (when used correctly) can only bolster the argument involved. We can & do learn from what we see inside our quarry & it is my belief that we owe it to the game to share our findings with our fellow sportsmen.


Internal ballistics is a science, hypothesis' need to be tested & findings should be reported. Would Berger bullets enjoy the reputation afforded them today if we as responsible sportsmen chose to not share our tests/photos & experiences? I don't think so. What about the smaller companies like Matrix or Cutting Edge? Companies such as these rely on word of mouth from knowledgeable sportsmen as a rudimentary endorsement for the product as well as a basis for improvement of the end product.

Is it necessary to post a gut pile on Face Book? No, that's akin to dog fighting behind the local PETA building. You're asking for trouble. Does that necessitate non-disclosure across the board? Absolutely not. Places such as LRH not only accept but, on certain occasion encourage dispersion & for good reason.

The fear of offending someone in the caustic world of PC appeasement is understandable however, a small dose of common sense with a discretion chaser is more than enough to rectify the situation.
In this case, a blanket policy is not the "best policy". There is more than enough averment to show strong argument for both sides of this debate. We owe it to our quarry to know not only what works, but what works better & how to use it more effectively. We owe it to our camaraderie to share our lessons learned; thus enhancing the capability of all sportsmen. The increased capability & lethality of our brethren is the champion of what may be construed as ethics as its finest.


But hey, that's just my opinion.......


t

Ok Einstein.

J/K...that was a good post. I believe those pictures are important because it actually tells a very important story of what happened and what went right or wrong. We all learn from visual presentations.

And Clint Eastwood rocks!

 

[bigngreen]

Well spoken Outlaw, this thread has not set well with me but I lack the civilized language you seem to posses. To me this reeks of social liberalism which in it's slow degrading of our country has been accepted as the norm.

As a people the more we white wash the reality of death the less empathy we have for the game we take, death is a consequent or an intent of our actions and I think that the white washing it as proposed has led the issues we now have as hunters and on a more serious scale the lack of respect that is shown to our fellow man when kids only connection to death and it's ramifications are a video game.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

....
And Clint Eastwood rocks!

The more I know about Clint, the more I like him. I would seriously like to have a sit down with the guy.

.. To me this reeks of social liberalism which in it's slow degrading of our country has been accepted as the norm.

.... kids only connection to death and it's ramifications are a video game.

Brother, it ain't a slow degredation anymore. The PC snowball is turning into a caustic avalanche, quickly. It is the norm, the nanny state decides what you need to think, feel, believe & say, if you aren't one of the sheep you are cast out or villified. I learned a long time ago that you can't please everybody all the time... It really doesn't bother me all that much


Your last point makes me consider the hypocracy of the current world. Violence in real life is abhored whether it is hunting or other. Violence on the silver screen or Play Station is just fine, kids nowadays have no idea.... & even worse, I don't think they care.


t

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Seems pretty simple to me..

Read title of the post...

You don't like what it says...

Don't click the mouse...

I actually gained insight seeing the picture of the redneck (B&G) with his fist next to the elk knuckle...

 

[Konrad]

I agree that in a closed "conversation" photos of this nature are acceptable and can even be very informative. I have seen numerous photos of scapulae, liver, heart and other bone tissue used as demonstrators for the effectiveness of various hunting broadhead designs. Those pictures are indeed valid and in many cases performing those experiments are required if one is to gain credible data on broadhead/arrow/projectile combinations.

My fear lies in knowing how easy it is for data (pictures) to be accessed by those who would subvert intent and try to use them as propaganda tools against the hunting/shooting community as a whole. I would pray that if photos of this nature are being circulated, those folks creating and/or sharing them take care they do not let the pictures fall into the wrong hands.

I have already gotten numerous comments on this missive posted on a few of the archery/bowhunting and firearms hunting web-sites. The overwhelming sentiment is "If you find the pictures offensive, you don't have to look." In my opinion this attitude is not only short-sighted but bordering on belligerent. In an age where one third of the population believes Americans should have their weapon access strictly limited (i.e. banned), throwing fuel onto the fire, branding hunters and shooters as violent barbarians intent on the destruction of themselves and others, is only furthered by pictures of Billy Bob grinning, holding a dripping organ and pointing to a gaping hole where a projectile recently passed through.

I'm just hoping folks are a little smarter when they send these photos around and keep them off of social web-sites like Facebook.

PS

I just loved "…akin to dog fighting in back of the local PETA headquarters."!

I also have a Clint Eastwood collection and a 44 Magnum.

K

 

[Outlaw6.0]

Konrad,
I applaud your approach to the matter, I sincerely appreciate being able to discuss a rather volatile topic such as this w/o it turning into a pie fight. For the most part, I agree with what you've said. I don't however, believe that particular photographic evidence be omitted due to what amounts to fear of retaliation and/or public backlash. I believe, as posted before, common sense & discretion go a LONG way toward protecting one's posterior. As you've pointed out (quite well I might add) is that common sense is so rare it should be officially classified as a Super Power. Bubba does just as much damage to our sport as he does to embrace it; of that I am most certain. I/we deal with these idiots on a regular basis & most unfortunately, they multiply.

Note: I've tried hard to not make this a political or moral/ethical post; we'll see what Len thinks.

I see & believe that those of opposite thinking have adopted, to great success, the approach that you seem to be vehemently discouraging. We're here, we're ……umm, errr…. Get used to it, simple arrogance. It seems to be perfectly acceptable to ram a certain agenda down the throat an opponent; as long as you're advocating a "right" of some sort. Whether or not that particular "right" infringes on the "rights" of others is of little consequence it seems.

Being patronized by a society that can barely tie its own shoes would be farcical if it were not for the continual assertion (and general consensus) that a round peg will indeed, fit into a square hole. They know not what they speak, as usual, & they don't care. I for one, cannot surrender my moral standing in exchange for being accepted as one of the "cool kids". I'd might instead chose to be hung, drawn & quartered (punishment for treason, old England).

I understand I've been a bit primeval in my rebuttal however I, among other, have come to the point where a "Not One Inch Further" mindset is becoming more prevalent.

In the end, we are the champions & emissaries of our sport & of our culture. Without us, our sport is most assuredly predestined for termination. We must choose our battles wisely just as sure as we must maintain a constant presence of force, assuring our opposition that we will not be driven or beaten into submission.

I sometimes feel we are on the verge of a catch 22 scenario. If we're too quiet, we will be steamrolled as a piece of road kill on the road towards Utopia. If we yell too hard; what may come of that? I don't know but, it can't be much worse than what we KNOW is coming down the road.

I believe it was Dylan Thomas who wrote "Rage, rage against the dying of the light".
I think I know what he meant.

t

 

[Konrad]

Hello Outlaw,

Believe me when I say that I fully appreciate the "Not One More Inch" mentality! A fault of mine throughout life has been reaching for the launch all nuclear weapons button when confronted with mice eating the corn for my deer. I am constantly reminding myself that such excessive tactics invariably result in unintended collateral damage that rarely furthers my cause. Of course, my first inclination is to plaster pictures like we are discussing all over frequently visited web-sites just to get a negative reaction. Then my better nature (read: "Wife") usually steps in with more sanity and reason prevails. At least it seems I am better able to keep those with whom I'm debating involved in the discussion rather than their just abandoning the conversation.


As a group, hunters and shooting sports enthusiasts have been taking it on the PR chin for decades. Most anti-hunting/shooting activists will tell you that they would be thrilled at the prospect of removing the tools of our avocation from our hands but will also admit their strategy of "Death by a Thousand Cuts" will get the same desired outcome albeit over a longer time frame. This is the gambit I seek to thwart by asking for those who revel in those photos (I must admit more than a little scientific curiosity on my own part) avoid the gore for gore's sake snap shot and apparent exploitation (to the uninitiated) of our game animals for less than sportsman like purposes.

You and I are on the same page. Keep up the good work!

Good luck with your future efforts afield.
Konrad

 

[Outlaw6.0]

Hello Outlaw,

.... A fault of mine throughout life has been reaching for the launch all nuclear weapons button when confronted with......

You and I are on the same page. Keep up the good work!

A fault I share as well. It's taken many years to achieve the ability to yield with any consistency

Thank you for the kind comments, I believe we are on the same page.


t