Rangefinder: which leica?

[Axl]

I have the 2000b (my 5th Leica RF) it works great. I use Strelok pro in my phone, but I have a chart made up using the ave temp, altitude etc. of the 2 areas I primarily hunt.

 

[catorres1]

What kind of range are you reliably getting with the diff models?

Rocky,
Hard to answer that, as conditions are everything. I have a couple reviews up on the 2700 and 2800...I think the 2800 only is on this board, the one on the 2700 is on a couple others as well.

Anyway, I ran both of these for months (years in the case of the 2700) in everything from sun to snow, Texas to Michigan to Colorado. Tested on steel, targets, trees, rocks, and animals where I could find them (that was actually the hardest!).

The best I can characterize is that shooting good trees both the 2700 and 2800 will get right at 2800 yards under good conditions (end of day, low light, clear). Same with good rock faces. The 2700, the best I ever got was 2785, and the 2800, 2800, though it felt like it may have had a bit more in it, but I ran out of space.

On a 12" white paper target, I got just over 1500 IIRC with both, but it took a lot of tries...it was much more reliable at just over 1400 IIRC.

Animals, well, they don't seem to cooperate much for me, but cows at over 1000 was easily done, even in full sun. Under clouds, I hit a skylined hiker at just over 1300, and a deer at about the same distance. Those were very hard for me as even when you have it on a tripod, 7x at 1300 yards on a Central Texas dog-sized whitetail doe is hard.

Thing to note is that full sun, haze, dust, heavy humidity, all that stuff makes a dramatic difference, so take these distances with a grain of salt. But overall, my experience with Leica CRF's is that the number they give you is good in most conditions on realistic targets, conditions and targets where some other brands would cut out long before hitting that number.

 

[Oi.223]

i used nikon for years and never had any issues. about 4 or 5 years ago my wifes went bad and she got a leupold and i started comparing it to the nikon and saw how much better it was so i figured i would just upgrade. i looked at the leupold, vortex, and the leica and ended up getting a leica 1000-r and love it.

 

[vcinri]

Catorres1,
Thank you for the information.
I am hoping to find something with the ability to range a deer size animal out to 500 + yds.
I really don't anticipate shooting over 1000 yds. Do the Leicas have a threaded base for a tripod mount? Not sure if anyone near me carries them, it would be mail order only. I would like to handle one and look through it before I buy it.
Thanks,
VC

 

[catorres1]

Catorres1,
Thank you for the information.
I am hoping to find something with the ability to range a deer size animal out to 500 + yds.
I really don't anticipate shooting over 1000 yds. Do the Leicas have a threaded base for a tripod mount? Not sure if anyone near me carries them, it would be mail order only. I would like to handle one and look through it before I buy it.
Thanks,
VC

You are welcome.

As to the base, no they do not. It's one of the recommendations I made to them during pre-pro testing. Their biggest competitor, Sig, also does not, though they have put a stud mount on their RF bino. I never got a reason from Leica why they don't...my guess is that their original design of the case does not make room for it. If you will look at the cases of the CRF's since the redesign from the horizontal box they had a long time ago, the case has remained the same. The 2800 is very slightly wider, however, which leads me to think that it's pretty full in there and they don't want to do a complete redesign to add a tripod mount. Not sure though, but hope they do some day...same with Sig. So you have to use an aftermarket cradle. Several companies, including Leica, make them.

As to hitting a deer at 500, any Leica CRF current made will do that except under very poor conditions (heavy precipitation or heavy fog).

As for handling, they are smooth and rounded...feel very well made because they are. Buttons are easy to actuate but not too easy, properly placed and very positive. Glass on Leicas is really nice, very useful even for observation duty, true color, handles flare very well.

There are very few things I don't like about them, overall, their experience has earned them top shelf status.

 

[fmajor]

WOW!!!

Thank you all for sharing your experience, wisdom and advice. Amazing membership here.

So to fill in the blanks that did not give adequate context for "best choice for use", these answers should help.

General use out to 900yds (for now...) for hunting elk in all the nastiest weather so common at altitude. Ability to range in adverse conditions is a plus.

I do have other instruments for atmospherics (anemometer, GPS, and barometer/temperature). Also, plan on scribbling out my drops at ranges - card taped to rifle - old school.

Another quandry for me is choosing the device/software to calc solutions.... I don't really trust my phone (Samsung Galaxy S7) and it's un-impressive battery life.

I work for a mission agency so a rangefinder with all the 'bells n whistles' just isn't gonna succeed in the budget-test....hence the 2400-R (or possibly the 2000-B - whichever "ranges" best).

Again, thank you all so much for your guidance!

frank

 

[catorres1]

WOW!!!

Thank you all for sharing your experience, wisdom and advice. Amazing membership here.

So to fill in the blanks that did not give adequate context for "best choice for use", these answers should help.

General use out to 900yds (for now...) for hunting elk in all the nastiest weather so common at altitude. Ability to range in adverse conditions is a plus.

I do have other instruments for atmospherics (anemometer, GPS, and barometer/temperature). Also, plan on scribbling out my drops at ranges - card taped to rifle - old school.

Another quandry for me is choosing the device/software to calc solutions.... I don't really trust my phone (Samsung Galaxy S7) and it's un-impressive battery life.

I work for a mission agency so a rangefinder with all the 'bells n whistles' just isn't gonna succeed in the budget-test....hence the 2400-R (or possibly the 2000-B - whichever "ranges" best).

Again, thank you all so much for your guidance!

frank

Frank,

The one question that's easy is between the 2k and the 2400, which will have more ranging horsepower, it will be the 2400. You will probably get 3-500 yards additional ranging on the top end.
Glass will be the same, form factor, buttons etc.
In bad weather, they are probably the same as the issue is not power, but reflection off of precipitation, which will give you odd readings, usually in the 40-60 yard range when you are clearly ranging further.

The part I get a bit lost on is you mention doing drops on cards, but also mention other tools for atmospherics and also possibly other tools as a solver.

At the distances you want to shoot at, I definitely want a solver that can crunch the numbers in the field and be as exact as possible. My Leicas both have environmentals, but for the long shots, I rely on a Kestrel with AB for both the enviros and for the solution. It's tested beyond 1500, and it's been remarkably accurate in it's solution.

It's not cheap, but I think they came out with a more limited version this year at Shot, might look into that. A Foretrex 701 would be great too, but they too are pricey.

So if you are down to the phone, and that's how lots of people do it, you could pick up a battery pack. I use ONx on my phone alot and rely on it (my Garmin is really my backup), and I have an external battery that I carry in the pack. Works great and it's a cheap solution using something you already have.

You workflow would basically be ranging, putting your data into your solver and taking your shot.

While that workflow is relatively slow, with long shots, you should have the time. It's the close to midrange stufff where you will get bunged up, so you will need a faster solution for those scenarios. For that, your cards could do the job.

Likewise, the 2k would probably be fine as well even with the presets. How far depends on just how well your load matches one of the presets, but I'd expect 500 or so would be a reliable expectation at a minimum, especially on an elk sized kill zone. IIRC, my 1600b was fine up to about 600 with the closest curve, but by 800 it was off by 1 MOA. Also, even if it was accurate, Leica limits the solution it will give to 875 yards IIRC, but it might be 800.

So in sum...2400 has more power. 2000 has some abilities in the midrange that could be useful for when you are in a hurry. For anything past the mid, definitely recommend a good solver, and with a good battery pack, that could be your phone despite it's limited internal battery.

HTH, not sure I am narrowing your choice any further here, but at least there are a few data points for you to consider.

 

[Jaredk03]

If you will be shooting at angles, consider this: I bought the 2000b intially and after using it in the EHR mode (equivalent horizontal range) for angle compensated range, I found out it was taking the atmospheric pressure and temperature into account for the range. It does this as it references ballistic curves at a standard atmospheric pressure and temperature. So to use it properly, you need to zero at these conditions and then find the curve that is closest to your load. Way too confusing and imprecise at longer ranges. I didn't really trust it for giving me the correct yardage based on angle. So I returned it and bought the 2400r and it is simpler as it uses the angle in the calculation only. The advantage here is it reads out first the line of sight distance, which would be used to compensate for wind, and then the equivalent horizontal distance which would be used for the drop. If you use a dope card setup for your hunting area with yardage, drop and windage you can easily have everything you need. Or pair it with an app and Kestrel to have more precise data. And the 2400r will range a little further than the 2000b. On trees I got over 2100 vs 1950 yds so both range awesome.

 

[Doug Herold]

Hey fmajor,

Just seeing this today. I have, or have had, a few RF's from Leica, but don't currently have a 2400r, though in my conversations with Leica, I am pretty familiar with it's performance. In Leica's, I am currently running a 2700 and a 2800, but had a 1600 in the past.

The answer is somewhat complicated for a post, so if you want to PM me to arrange direct contact for more info, please don't hesitate. I'll ping you with my number.

I assume we are talking Leica CRF's only here, no other brands etc.

As a bow hunter, if you want a b model, you want to go 2000 or newer, 1600b's were not setup to run well for bows. 2000's and newer run well.

You mention shooting to 900 yards...not sure you are talking animals or steel here. But either way, in that case, you need a solution that will be fairly accurate, which means, at least in my experience, preset curves are not probably going to cut it. In my experience, you can usually rely on one being close enough out to 600 yards or so, but once you go further, you likely will want to be using a custom curve. Not that it's impossible that you will match up sufficiently for 1k type shots, but none of my rifles did.

So if you go with a 2000b or a 2400, you are going to probably want a separate solver (phone, kestrel with AB, etc.). Though the 2000b has environmentals and ballistics onboard, the ballistics require you to choose from a preset, no custom curves can be utilized, so you still want a solver for the long shots. The 2400 only does distance and angle, so you will need to gather environmentals from another device etc. to enter into the solver.

If you want the RF to do it internally and use a custom curve, a 2700b or 2800.com is what you would need, but those bust your budget substantially.

Between the 2k and the 2400, the 2400 will range a little farther. The 2k does give you ballistics, but I don't trust them past mid range distances anyways. That said, if your hunting shots will be more limited in distance, then the 2k ballistics may work for you....it all depends how close your curve matches up to one of the presets. But I would not personally bank on it working to 900 yards.

Oh, one other thing...the temp readings in the RF's are very susceptible to drift...that is your body heat, the sun, etc...they will drift considerably and take a while to stabilize...up to 30 minutes depending. So step out of a warm truck into cold air, and you will not have a proper temp for a solution for some amount of time.

Hope that helps your decision a bit, like I said, feel free to PM me if I can help further.

I agree 100% with Cat-1. I have owned the 1600b as well as the 2000b. There are some things about the Leica that are the best features I have found, and some that simply make it unusable. I gave and sold both of my Leica rangefinders away. Leica's auto adjustment for light conditions is the best I have found ( vs: Kilo & Gunwerks GR2). It acquires targets and gives a range solution easy and fast. Conversely, the models I mentioned would not give me correct temp and density corrections for shots out past 600 yds ( per Cat1 post ). The Leica is made and warranty work is done in Portugal, I believe. Consequently, any warranty service is the worst I have ever seen.
The Leica actually would be my favorite to use if it could be accurate beyond 600 yds.
I would like to hear from another member who has used the advanced models. As a hunter, im no fan of using Bluetooth or any 2nd contraption to get my ballistic solution. Unlike steel, animals constantly are on the move and quick, accurate data is a priority for me.

 

[fmajor]

Gentlemen -

Thank you all so much -

I believe i'll be ordering the 2400-R next week. It really seems to be the most appropriate device for my needs without cluttering 'things' up and thereby keeping the main thing the main thing - determine range to the target.

However, catorres1 is killin' me!!! But his questioning what my need really is and which solution-path may be "best" for my particular situation is absolute, pure wisdom.

Yeah, so now after squirreling away my pennies for an eon to buy a rangefinder i've gotta start all over again to get a Kestrel.... oy - (just kidding it's really only a 1st 'world' problem)

I won't promise to enter pics of my ugly mug using this nifty new toy, but rest assured it will be getting use!

 

[catorres1]

I agree 100% with Cat-1. I have owned the 1600b as well as the 2000b. There are some things about the Leica that are the best features I have found, and some that simply make it unusable. I gave and sold both of my Leica rangefinders away. Leica's auto adjustment for light conditions is the best I have found ( vs: Kilo & Gunwerks GR2). It acquires targets and gives a range solution easy and fast. Conversely, the models I mentioned would not give me correct temp and density corrections for shots out past 600 yds ( per Cat1 post ). The Leica is made and warranty work is done in Portugal, I believe. Consequently, any warranty service is the worst I have ever seen.
The Leica actually would be my favorite to use if it could be accurate beyond 600 yds.
I would like to hear from another member who has used the advanced models. As a hunter, im no fan of using Bluetooth or any 2nd contraption to get my ballistic solution. Unlike steel, animals constantly are on the move and quick, accurate data is a priority for me.

Doug,

I actually have both the 2700 and the 2800, so maybe can comment on these as well if that helps. I actually moved to the 2700 when I experienced less than satisfactory ballistic solutions from my 1600b. Being able to input your curve and tweak as necessary made a world of difference! I run the numbers in the field against my Kestrel, which I have trued out past the 1k limit in the Leica....and if you exclude coriolis and aerodynamic jump from the Kestrel (which the Leica does not consider), I can get my drops to match to .1 MOA or better. Here is the caveat though, you are probably going to have to tweak the BC and velocity a bit to get it that close...depends on your bullet (Secant boat-tails are farther off then more standard profile bullets in my experience). But it can be done and I trust that system. The 2800 is the same engine, side by side with the 2700, they are identical. The 2800 adds the ability to source your solution from the Kestrel via bluetooth if you want to shoot longer than 1k or want these higher forces considered, but then as you mention, you have to trust in that bluetooth working etc., when you want to use the Kestrel.

When it comes to 'a complete solution' in an RF, the Sig 2400 ABS is pretty awesome, full AB onboard, so you get the same solver as you would on a Kestrel. There are some caveats to go along with that along the lines of temp etc....and of course divergence etc. But those have been available fairly cheaply lately (800 and some change) when put on flash sale.

BTW, to illustrate a point about these sovlers, spent the day yesterday testing Sig's BDX setup with my trainer on his range. Used the 3kBDX with a bdx scope, also had various other RF's there and of course my Kestrel. I'll detail more in review in the next weeks, but internally, the BDX rf's run AB ultralite, which is similar to what the Leicas run in that no coriolis etc, but it accepts G7's....solution limited to 800 yards. What we found is that when we compared the solution from ultralite vs the Kestrel running AB using a custom drag curve....the ultralite was pretty consistently off by .5 MOA from about 400 to 700 (next target was 1125, so could not get a solution on that). Checked it against the Kestrel, and the Kestrel called for .5 less elevation. We ended up tweaking the BC on the 3k profile and got it to match to less than .2 MOA with the Kestrel...could probably get a little closer, but good enough for the moment. Shot the plates again from 400-700 with the adjusted profile using the calls from ultralite, perfect hits. All that is to say, full AB using those custom curves is really superior to what Leica has, but even also in our experience, what ABU gives. ABU seems to be closer out of the box, but it still needs a little help. Gotta say, full AB has been for all of our guns...amazingly accurate when using the CDM's.

One other note about Leica...have spent time talking with the guys in charge there, one conversation was specifically around CS, as their CS rep was abysmal...and by rights from what I hear...they probably earned it. But in the last year or so, they started hammering at that. They have now doubled their CS staff IIRC, and their focus is on that problem. In the last year or so, everything I have heard suggests they have turned it around. I know everyone I have connected them with has been taken care of quickly and more then fairly.

There are lots of good RF choices out there, but only a few really excellent ones in my opinion. Leica is not the only excellent one, obviously, but is definitely one of the leaders, so if you like what you had but for their ballistics, I would recommend looking at the 2700b and see what you think. As a non-bluetooth enabled RF that still supplies ballistics, it is probably my favorite. While I do like the 2400ABS as well, unless you find one on sale, it's in a different price class. It has it's ups over the 2700 but also it's downs, but it is a very complete solution.

 

[catorres1]

Gentlemen -

Thank you all so much -

I believe i'll be ordering the 2400-R next week. It really seems to be the most appropriate device for my needs without cluttering 'things' up and thereby keeping the main thing the main thing - determine range to the target.

However, catorres1 is killin' me!!! But his questioning what my need really is and which solution-path may be "best" for my particular situation is absolute, pure wisdom.

Yeah, so now after squirreling away my pennies for an eon to buy a rangefinder i've gotta start all over again to get a Kestrel.... oy - (just kidding it's really only a 1st 'world' problem)

I won't promise to enter pics of my ugly mug using this nifty new toy, but rest assured it will be getting use!

Heheh...

Yeah, I'm that guy that 'helps out' by making things more expensive and too complicated, ha! Seriously, hope I did not make your decision too much more muddled, but again, if I can help further, don't hesitate to PM me and I'll give you my phone number and help out any way I can!

 

[Dean2]

I have the Ballistic and non-ballistic versions> I have one of each: B, R, and straight finder.. My take, stick to the non-ballistic. Less clutter, simpler usage and setting. I tape a range card to the side of every gun anyhow. I find having the ballistic solution in the Range finder is not helpful for hunting. Might be fine for LR target etc but for hunting the card is WAY faster. Get the true range from the finder, the angle setup is really useful if you hunt canyons, mountains or anything not perfectly flat. Use the range with the card, dial or use your hash marks and dope the wind. Kill the game .

 

[Doug Herold]

Doug,

I actually have both the 2700 and the 2800, so maybe can comment on these as well if that helps. I actually moved to the 2700 when I experienced less than satisfactory ballistic solutions from my 1600b. Being able to input your curve and tweak as necessary made a world of difference! I run the numbers in the field against my Kestrel, which I have trued out past the 1k limit in the Leica....and if you exclude coriolis and aerodynamic jump from the Kestrel (which the Leica does not consider), I can get my drops to match to .1 MOA or better. Here is the caveat though, you are probably going to have to tweak the BC and velocity a bit to get it that close...depends on your bullet (Secant boat-tails are farther off then more standard profile bullets in my experience). But it can be done and I trust that system. The 2800 is the same engine, side by side with the 2700, they are identical. The 2800 adds the ability to source your solution from the Kestrel via bluetooth if you want to shoot longer than 1k or want these higher forces considered, but then as you mention, you have to trust in that bluetooth working etc., when you want to use the Kestrel.

When it comes to 'a complete solution' in an RF, the Sig 2400 ABS is pretty awesome, full AB onboard, so you get the same solver as you would on a Kestrel. There are some caveats to go along with that along the lines of temp etc....and of course divergence etc. But those have been available fairly cheaply lately (800 and some change) when put on flash sale.

BTW, to illustrate a point about these sovlers, spent the day yesterday testing Sig's BDX setup with my trainer on his range. Used the 3kBDX with a bdx scope, also had various other RF's there and of course my Kestrel. I'll detail more in review in the next weeks, but internally, the BDX rf's run AB ultralite, which is similar to what the Leicas run in that no coriolis etc, but it accepts G7's....solution limited to 800 yards. What we found is that when we compared the solution from ultralite vs the Kestrel running AB using a custom drag curve....the ultralite was pretty consistently off by .5 MOA from about 400 to 700 (next target was 1125, so could not get a solution on that). Checked it against the Kestrel, and the Kestrel called for .5 less elevation. We ended up tweaking the BC on the 3k profile and got it to match to less than .2 MOA with the Kestrel...could probably get a little closer, but good enough for the moment. Shot the plates again from 400-700 with the adjusted profile using the calls from ultralite, perfect hits. All that is to say, full AB using those custom curves is really superior to what Leica has, but even also in our experience, what ABU gives. ABU seems to be closer out of the box, but it still needs a little help. Gotta say, full AB has been for all of our guns...amazingly accurate when using the CDM's.

One other note about Leica...have spent time talking with the guys in charge there, one conversation was specifically around CS, as their CS rep was abysmal...and by rights from what I hear...they probably earned it. But in the last year or so, they started hammering at that. They have now doubled their CS staff IIRC, and their focus is on that problem. In the last year or so, everything I have heard suggests they have turned it around. I know everyone I have connected them with has been taken care of quickly and more then fairly.

There are lots of good RF choices out there, but only a few really excellent ones in my opinion. Leica is not the only excellent one, obviously, but is definitely one of the leaders, so if you like what you had but for their ballistics, I would recommend looking at the 2700b and see what you think. As a non-bluetooth enabled RF that still supplies ballistics, it is probably my favorite. While I do like the 2400ABS as well, unless you find one on sale, it's in a different price class. It has it's ups over the 2700 but also it's downs, but it is a very complete solution.

Cat-1,
Your review and comment on the Leica is THE MOST COMPLETE I have seen. Thank you for the wealth of information. I will have the 2700b in my sights (lol).