The smaller bones are eaten the larger ones are toys for a while then moved away from the den. flies, magpie's, buzzards etc... are attracted to them. Have you seen them bring any live toys for the pups yet? Is the nearby den the one you walked up on? The coyotes in my area make several clean outs before they pup, that way they have other places to take the kids if they need to. Do you know if there are any diseases going through your area, like parvo, mange or distemper? I have seen one older female that split her large litter up and had them in two den holes. There was a slight trail going from one hole to the other hole. She had six female pups in one hole and seven male pups in the other, the guy before me used to take her litter but leave her a couple of female pups, because she had large litters and he didn't want to run out of work, He was betting on genetics and that maybe the large litters would carry on in her pups. I don't know if that played a part in it or not for sure, but I suspect it might have.
Ramblings and Such From Hunting Coyote
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windypants
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Yeah, the abandoned den is the one I walked up on. They didn't leave it right away, but with me checking the trail camera once a week, I guess it was too much. The den up the valley is too far away to see much detail, so there could be more pups there. I shot one coyote in December that was very sick with mange and saw another with a naked tail. Haven't seen any sign of disease since, and the vole population is still thriving. I'm guessing that since I shot so many here that this is a young female with her first litter. I wish I was close enough to hear them.
Yes coyotes don't tend to like humans close to their dens. I have known of them moving the pups with just one person and one trip close to the den. Coyotes seem to be more cautious than red fox, and they for sure don't tolerate being messed with by birds and such as much as a fox will. Fox are smart as well but just don't seem as cautious as a coyote. It doesn't take much to kill coyote pups when they are young, pretty much any of the things that an adult coyote can live through will kill the pups when they are younger. Walt and I got out this morning and were finding den cleanouts but no tracks, so I talked to the landowner and asked him if they had killed a pair out of that area recently, yes, we did we killed a pair there this spring, she was heavy with pups only four. All of the miles I put on yesterday I saw a lot of animals but only two fawns both with one doe antelope. It's green all the way from Casper to Cheyenne. We saw a lot of antelope this morning but no fawns yet here.
BooneLiane
Well-Known Member
Coyotes keep a clean house compared to fox.
Anything to keep attention away from that location.
That's why locating during early denning isn't going to get you close to that den. They won't howl near the den. If I locate a coyote via howling in May/early June, it's either a dry, or it's not "home" yet.
Not at all uncommon, in fact pretty par for the course for "normal" or large size litters for them to split the litter up when they start weaning them.
Anything to keep attention away from that location.
That's why locating during early denning isn't going to get you close to that den. They won't howl near the den. If I locate a coyote via howling in May/early June, it's either a dry, or it's not "home" yet.
Not at all uncommon, in fact pretty par for the course for "normal" or large size litters for them to split the litter up when they start weaning them.
I have been known to call and kill both and at times three adult coyotes near the den by howling them. Here they most times will come to the howls if you are close but mostly stand, set or lay down where they can see the howler and the den at the same time. I have often howled them and watched them get to a hilltop out to a couple of miles, then just set and watch my way then look towards the den for up to an hour and not come any closer. When you are too close to the den and howl, they will run out barking and giving half howls get to an open place and do all kinds of posturing and decoying to draw you out away from the den. Tracking is the most reliable way to locate their dens earlier in the season, but I have often just sat early in the mornings and listened for the old male to come back to the den in the morning to relieve the female with the newborn pups so she can go to feed and water. They don't talk much but they do let each other know that they are around and that he is coming home, and she will let him know that she is allowing him to and that she knows where he is. As with me howling them she will get to a rise and talk to him with one howl where she can see the den and look for him. I don't rely on an e-caller and use my hand calls or my voice if I have too, knowing when to call and what to say has its merits and rewards, and the coyote is a challenge no matter where you are they are cautious and patient often just watching from a distance.
BooneLiane
Well-Known Member
There's a difference between calling, and locating.
If you're two miles from the den, trying to locate those coyotes and they're on the den, they're not likely going to tip their hand. They know how far away that sound is, and it's not a threat, yet.
They may move out a ways and than answer. But these coyotes these days just don't vocalize on the den anymore. Not until later when the pups start vocalizing. Even the distance you can pull coyotes off a den location seems to get smaller and smaller every year. The calling craze of the last 15 years has changed the game so much. A couple of us were just discussing this topic a few days ago. A good friend of mine that's been in the full time control business for 40+ years now says it's amazing what they used to be able to get away with compared to now.
Now if you're within a half mile of the den, maybe a bit further with the right coyotes even, you're no longer "locating", IMO. You're in their house at the point and very likely to illicit a response, probably vocally and physically at that point. At that distance you've given them no option but to respond.
If you're two miles from the den, trying to locate those coyotes and they're on the den, they're not likely going to tip their hand. They know how far away that sound is, and it's not a threat, yet.
They may move out a ways and than answer. But these coyotes these days just don't vocalize on the den anymore. Not until later when the pups start vocalizing. Even the distance you can pull coyotes off a den location seems to get smaller and smaller every year. The calling craze of the last 15 years has changed the game so much. A couple of us were just discussing this topic a few days ago. A good friend of mine that's been in the full time control business for 40+ years now says it's amazing what they used to be able to get away with compared to now.
Now if you're within a half mile of the den, maybe a bit further with the right coyotes even, you're no longer "locating", IMO. You're in their house at the point and very likely to illicit a response, probably vocally and physically at that point. At that distance you've given them no option but to respond.
BooneLiane
Well-Known Member
These coyotes have changed so much in the era of recreational calling being the "in" thing, fox pros, and now thermals.
I took a den here two weeks ago that should have been a fun, "game on" situation. Had an idea where the den was but not an exact location so I snuck in in the dark with the idea of just glassing and letting mom and dad show up on their own.
Ended up just 350 yards from the hole. Watched pups (and big, early litter pups at that) screwing around for an hour before I spotted mom and dad.
Wind was shifting on me so had to hurry mom and dad home. Pup distress SHOULD have had them in my lap in about 40 seconds. Heck they were only 600 yards away.
Nope.
Mom sat on a hill, dad paced back and forth along a ridge screaming and barking his head off, but they weren't gonna come.
Finally coaxed a babysitter in to about 450 and killed him. Normally I wouldn't have done that, but since I knew where the pups were, I decided one adult was better than none. As it wasn't looking good to pick up those other two.
Ended up taking the den but didn't get either parent. Not ideal at all, but better than a kick in the teeth.
That scenario seems to be getting more and more common.
I took a den here two weeks ago that should have been a fun, "game on" situation. Had an idea where the den was but not an exact location so I snuck in in the dark with the idea of just glassing and letting mom and dad show up on their own.
Ended up just 350 yards from the hole. Watched pups (and big, early litter pups at that) screwing around for an hour before I spotted mom and dad.
Wind was shifting on me so had to hurry mom and dad home. Pup distress SHOULD have had them in my lap in about 40 seconds. Heck they were only 600 yards away.
Nope.
Mom sat on a hill, dad paced back and forth along a ridge screaming and barking his head off, but they weren't gonna come.
Finally coaxed a babysitter in to about 450 and killed him. Normally I wouldn't have done that, but since I knew where the pups were, I decided one adult was better than none. As it wasn't looking good to pick up those other two.
Ended up taking the den but didn't get either parent. Not ideal at all, but better than a kick in the teeth.
That scenario seems to be getting more and more common.
I retired from doing control work in 2017 and did it for over 36 years at that time. I have and will still say that the E-calls have made it harder on the professional control people. The puppy distress calls have their place and are abused by way too many people that are just recreational callers. As have the siren for locating. Having killed a lot of coyotes and taken a lot of dens to stop killing of livestock, I do know the difference between calling and locating coyotes. I ground crewed for planes and helicopters locating for them and getting them on the coyotes as well as being a gunner for them. I did the groundwork, found the dens and cleaned up after a lot of people who didn't know what they were doing or didn't care about the person who had to clean up after them. Not only the e-callers but the people learning long range shooting, the people who don't see the coyotes that they call, the people that get buck fever and miss, as well of a ton of people out and about trying to enjoy themselves that shoot at any coyote, fox or bobcat they might happen to see standing, running or setting have made the control workers job a lot harder. In the 60's very few people called any animals just a few government trappers and the animals came readily to rabbit destress calls, some of the government guys howled with their voice and a few of them made howlers out of such things as the mouth pieces of things like clarinets. I knew some of those guys and knew one that even made a recording of his coyote howling and played it on a battery powered 45 rpm record player. It hasn't just been the last 15 years that has changed the way that coyotes respond to the hunters. In the 80's when the fur prices were high there were a lot of people that hit the field and didn't have a clue as to what they were doing. A lot of people got into making and selling calls that really didn't know what the animals sounded like that they wanted to imitate. They were in it for the dollar. If I howl and get a coyote to come to a hilltop and set to look at me a-ways out and not come, I know that I need to leave and come back go to it and snipe it. If I have to take a den without getting the adults or just one of them then I know that I can't leave the ones that I trained and need to trap or snare them. If I have a coyote or coyotes that are just out there displaying, then I know to leave and come back and snipe them then go and take the pups or bring my dog back to decoy them. What I do to kill a coyote that is killing is totally different than most people would do. Killing coyotes that are killing is a serious job and I take it seriously, and that is why the people that I worked for still ask me to come out and check things out for them and I will till I die. I will probably be like Vern Dorn hobbling a long with a walking stick in one hand and using my rifle to help me walk as well and still taking adults and dens.
I've learned over the years that taking a shot just because or taking a bad shot was way worse than not taking the shot. Learning from the encounter then returning to the right spot at the right time and making a good shot. No matter what the quarry was.
BooneLiane
Well-Known Member
This coincides greatly with the tournament guys and the Wayne Gretzky mentality of "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take".
They'll pound away at those hold outs at 500-600 plus, because why not. Some get some, most don't.
Fast forward to April and it's no wonder everything's holding up and cutting for wind out past a quarter mile already.
Thank god for traps.
About 25 years ago I got a call from one of the ranchers I worked for to tell me he had been seeing a pair of coyotes in his cows and calves in such and such pasture. I told him I would be down in two days after I finished with the den I was after around forty miles from that pasture. I got there and put my truck in a draw before daylight, walked down and sat up with my glass' and waited. As the sun was rising, I heard them howl a long way off in the neighbor's pasture, so I just sat and watched. Pretty soon I saw them come down a ridge crawl under the fence and come towards me and the cows. I heard a truck and watched as it started toward the pasture, I was in. I called him and asked if he had his rifle then told him when he got to the gate there was two coyotes setting on the hill side about two hundred yards on his right-hand side just watching him and that I was in the clear for him to shoot. They just sat there looking as he got to the gate, got out of his truck and shot one. He called me and asked where I was, so I walked down to him. He had gotten the male. After I got back to my truck, he called me to tell me that he had talked to the neighbor and gotten permission for me to go in on his place and take the den. The road going in was on the other side of the pasture, so I went around to the gate, drove in and started tracking the coyotes on the cow paths. Down in a deep draw I saw the pups out playing so I got my things set up and watched them, I knew she was there but I didn't see her so I stayed away from the den went to the fence line and set snares in the crawl unders that had sign and went to another place that had lambs being killed. The next morning, I came back and there she was in one of my snares, I picked up the remaining snares then I went and took the den of eight pups. By then it was nearly 10;00 but I headed to the place with the lambs being killed and checked my snares that I had put out the day before. I did some more tracking and had it figured out pretty close to where they were living and that they had a den in the rough pine ridges. I called the landowner and told him where I thought they were and that it wasn't on him. He said he would make a few calls and get back to me latter. He did that evening and asked me if I could take him out to show him where I though the den was. We got there and I sat up did a couple of howls then waited out in front of us a pair of coyotes started their howling and barking display to decoy us away from the den he said I've got the plane coming in the morning now I can tell it where they are. The plane showed up got two adults and saw the den hole I got a call and asked if I would go take the den, so I said that I would. I wired 6 1/3rd grown pups out of that hole. If you are working in sheep country doing control of predators, you have been busy for at least a month and a half and will be till the end of June on a good year but with the low food base we have here now I doubt that it will slow down any time soon.
Near the center of the picture you can see a black spot in the rock ledge. That is a hole going back into the rocks where over the years I have taken a few litters of coyote pups. From where I was setting it's close to a quarter of a mile to it and two hundred feet above it. the draw that it's in runs for a couple of miles down to a creek and major travel route for all animals. I was setting on a ridge to the west of it and had crossed over in a saddle slipped down the side so as not to be sky lined and did my howls to see if anyone wanted to show themselves. There wasn't anyone around and no fresh tracks around.
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This innocent looking draw actually is a major travel route for predators. In the fall there will be cow trails that run down it and across the end of it near the road. The road comes near the end of it then y's and goes through a saddle into a badlands type of country to a creek three miles away. The road takes the easy travel route but the longer route to the spring then to the creek. Going the other direction, it joins three major draws then ends at a spring a couple of miles away. Water and traveling out of sight make it an important travel route. I can take five or six fox and three or four coyotes at the head of it down wind of a small sage brush used as my backing and scent post. The draw runs east and west with the predominate wind coming from the west. Tracking and learning to understand what I am observing told me this was my best set location for a couple of miles in this area. I found that I could make two sets here and have an animal nearly every check or check empty sets time after time in other places along the way to it. The time of year also plays a large part in it when the animals aren't traveling far from the kids you can only take the ones that call it home, but when they are dispersing in the fall and winter there will be more animals traveling past it.
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windypants
Well-Known Member
I finally got my 25 Creedmoor load ironed out. I was advised that 1077 yards might be a little too far to do load development with that lighter/slower bullet, so I set up a target at 635 yards. That gave me a more accurate picture of what was going on. I reduced neck tension to .002 and played with N555, H4350, Berger 135's and Hornady 134 ELDM's. My best load is 43.4gr N555 with the B135's, but 43.8gr N555 with the 134 ELDM's shot great too. I'll probably try that on coyotes at some point for comparison.
Happy Fathers Day!
Happy Fathers Day!
