Quest for g7 ballistics programs (can we please make a list)

[jmden]

I recently wrote Gerald Perry about his as well and he seemed a bit neutral about incorporating G7 capability into Exbal. Would it really be that difficult to program the software to do both drag functions? I don't know squat about programming, but on the surface, it doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to allow a portably program to do both. Somebody set me straight...

 

[jmason]

That's exciting news! Thanks for sharing w/ us Dick. Keep us posted also( as much as your allowed).

 

[ss7mm]

I have always had good luck getting standard/stock type questions answered by Mr. Perry and he's always been helpful but never indicated any interest in changing or adding any features.

Gus on the other hand, is always looking for ways to improve LoadBase and is more than willing to listen to any ideas that any users may have. We are going to be benefiting by his interest very soon as he's going to be making some super changes to both Desktop and Mobile versions of LoadBase.

I've heard some say that LoadBase is just "too much" and similar statements but the nice thing is that you don't have to use all of the features. I'd personally rather have a LOT more features and tend to use all of them but then I lean that direction on most stuff anyway.

 

[LouBoyd]

So Lou, how would any bullet maker define their bullet, if not with BC?

Sounds like your suggesting that someday we should download drag curves for each bullet instead of accepting a single relative BC. But that data will never be available.
So adjustments to drag curve will still require a single reference in one form or the other.

Might as well be BC
G1 BC
G7 BC
Or LouBoyd BC, if your's is right

I'm certainly not proposing a "LouBoyd BC". You say "that data will never be avaialble." Why not? There's under 100 kilobytes of information for a complete drag table from 0 to 4000 fps in 1 fps increments . That's about like a single still photo on the web. A lot less is needed to be much closer to reality than any single number BC can possibly be. The data would not be practical to publish on paper but it would be easy to download the files from a manufacturers website. I don't expect every manufacturer would buy the equipment to do the tests, but only a few test locations (maybe only one) is all tthat would be needed.

 

[Horsemen]

I also got an E mail from Gus stating the same thing about the G7 being added. The only thing now? Would the up grade be included with the program all ready offered. I'm going to get a program soon. I still need to finish "re"reading Bryan's book. And playing more with the program that came with it. trying to making my self more knowledgeable, before jumping in. Load base is on my short list.

 

[jmason]

I've heard some say that LoadBase is just "too much" and similar statements but the nice thing is that you don't have to use all of the features.

LB3 is as easy as you want it. You're not forced to use everything it offers. If you want to use published BCs and just put in condition (similar to Exbal) than you can. You can also take advantage of it's offerings and Cut out every potential/possible margin of error but yourself.

 

[jmden]

I have always had good luck getting standard/stock type questions answered by Mr. Perry and he's always been helpful but never indicated any interest in changing or adding any features.

Gus on the other hand, is always looking for ways to improve LoadBase and is more than willing to listen to any ideas that any users may have. We are going to be benefiting by his interest very soon as he's going to be making some super changes to both Desktop and Mobile versions of LoadBase.

I've heard some say that LoadBase is just "too much" and similar statements but the nice thing is that you don't have to use all of the features. I'd personally rather have a LOT more features and tend to use all of them but then I lean that direction on most stuff anyway.

Yes, for these reasons, I'm considering a move to LB, even though I've invested in both the PC and PPC versions of Exbal and upgraded to new version.

 

[Chief1942]

Okay, being a newb I have just purchased a PPC (Dell Axium X51) to run a Ballistic program. I have been trying to settle on a specific program but as with most things there are several out there and all seem to have their fan clubs. I was strongly considering Mr.Perry's Exbal until I read this thread. As I am going to be using 7mmRemMag Berger 168 VLDs and having read Mr. Litz's treatise on G1 vs G7, now am confused entirely. On visiting the Exbal site I see this link:http://www.perry-systems.com/Gmodels.pdf
Does this mean that Exbal now has the ability to use whatever "G" profile is most appropriate to any specific bullet's profile ?

As acquiring all the gadgets that are required with my entry into LRH, I would like to reduce the errors of purchasing superfluous items and start with what is "current technology" at the moment. A good, current ballistic program for that pocket PC seems to be very important in that quest. Appreciate any guidance others that have preceeded me may offer.

 

[jmden]

Okay, being a newb I have just purchased a PPC (Dell Axium X51) to run a Ballistic program. I have been trying to settle on a specific program but as with most things there are several out there and all seem to have their fan clubs. I was strongly considering Mr.Perry's Exbal until I read this thread. As I am going to be using 7mmRemMag Berger 168 VLDs and having read Mr. Litz's treatise on G1 vs G7, now am confused entirely. On visiting the Exbal site I see this link:http://www.perry-systems.com/Gmodels.pdf
Does this mean that Exbal now has the ability to use whatever "G" profile is most appropriate to any specific bullet's profile ?

As acquiring all the gadgets that are required with my entry into LRH, I would like to reduce the errors of purchasing superfluous items and start with what is "current technology" at the moment. A good, current ballistic program for that pocket PC seems to be very important in that quest. Appreciate any guidance others that have preceeded me may offer.

From recent email with Mr. Perry when asked about Gmodels: Exbal is still the Gold Card it has lots of features like the Excel interface that Gmodels does not.

 

[NZ Longranger]

For years I've been using a multiple BC system to work out drop charts that match my VLD trajectories out to extreme ranges. It works but is a long and involved process that requires lots of shooting at extended ranges. Since receiving Bryan's book and program, for the first time a ballistic program has got very close to my actual trajectories. Until something else better comes along, I will be using Bryan's BC program to compute my drop charts. For VLD's G1 is at best a fudge that will work out to about 1000 yards if you use an average BC system. The G1 BC varies hugely with velocity, to the point BC comparisons without mentioning velocity are pointless. As velocity drops off your G1 BC also starts to drop dramatically and that makes it impossible to match your trajectory with a single G1 BC to extreme range. Bryan's G7 BC program is far less velocity dependant, and is a very good match out to just above the speed of sound for my purposes.
I would certainly recommend his BC program to anyone wanting more accurate longrange drop predictions with VLD type bullets. Also, for anyone wanting to learn more about longrange trajectories and everything that affects them, Bryan's easy to understand, thoroughly well written book is a must read. I wish both had been available when I was teaching myself about longrange projectile trajectories!

Greg

 

[BryanLitz]

Thanks for the positive review Greg.

I had the opportunity to install and review Gerald's GModels program a few weeks ago when he and I were talking about adding G7 capability to Exbal. My understanding is that Gmodels is only for PC, not PPC or any other mobile device. I might be wrong about this.

I'm planning to tinker with mobile device programing this winter. In order to get started, I'll need to know what devices you all are using. Are you using Palm Pilots (I've got the impression that the newer Palm Pilots are only available with cell phone service subscriptions, can you still get them as a simple stand-alone PDA?) Pocket PC's, Cell Phones (if so, cell phones with Windows, or proprietary operating systems?)

This can be a deep rabbit hole, but one I'm willing to explore. Having a mobile device capable of calculating ballistics with G7 BC's is critical to this paradigm shift.

By the way, there are several ballistics apps available for iPhone, if you have one of those.

Take care,
-Bryan

 

[AJ Peacock]

Good discussion guys, I've been using Exbal on the PC and Palm Pilot for 2 years and for some bullets/velocities, it's very good out to certain distances. For example, for my 7mm Rem Mag, shooting 160AB's at 3015fps, it's dead nuts out to 800yds. But for my 338 Edge and 338 Allen Mag shooting the 300SMK at 2770fps and 3270fps respectively, it doesn't do as well. Albeit, it does fine out to 1000yds or so, beyond that and it starts to crater. This I believe is due entirely to the use of the G1 model.

Recently when JBM added the G7 models to their program, I ran some numbers for my Edge and AM using the G7 model for the 300SMK and it matches more closely my actual drop curves.

I compared the JBM drops for my Edge vs the Exbal drops and graphed them in Excel. Here is a chart that shows the MOA difference. (yardage across the top and MOA difference along left side of graph).

I wanted those curves to be available on my Palm Pilot version of Exbal, so I started experimenting with my own G1 numbers (multi BC) in the Exbal program. I came up with the following 2 entries that pretty closeley (within .1moa) match the G7 drop curves my Edge and AllenMag.

Sierra MKing Litz -Edge 0.338 300 HPBT .795>3150 .771>2850 .747>1990 .724>1625 .639>0
Sierra MKing Litz - AM 0.338 300 HPBT .795>3150 .762>2850 .741>1990 .718>1625 .639>0

These work out to around 1800yds and then they miss by .2-.3moa out to 2000yds.

I believe that a single entry won't work for the G1 model because the angle of departure is different for each rifle for the same distance and the velocities are so radically different.

Hope this helps someone out.

You can add entries like these to the text file 'bulletdata.txt' in the Exbal folder and they will auto-magically show up in your program.

AJ

 

[jmden]

Thanks for the positive review Greg.

I had the opportunity to install and review Gerald's GModels program a few weeks ago when he and I were talking about adding G7 capability to Exbal. My understanding is that Gmodels is only for PC, not PPC or any other mobile device. I might be wrong about this.

I'm planning to tinker with mobile device programing this winter. In order to get started, I'll need to know what devices you all are using. Are you using Palm Pilots (I've got the impression that the newer Palm Pilots are only available with cell phone service subscriptions, can you still get them as a simple stand-alone PDA?) Pocket PC's, Cell Phones (if so, cell phones with Windows, or proprietary operating systems?)

This can be a deep rabbit hole, but one I'm willing to explore. Having a mobile device capable of calculating ballistics with G7 BC's is critical to this paradigm shift.

By the way, there are several ballistics apps available for iPhone, if you have one of those.

Take care,
-Bryan

PPC's are what Gerald prefers, so that's what I got a couple of years ago. Windows based.

Sure would be nice to see a program with G1, G7 and spindrift and coriolis that can be integrated into the firing solution in MOA. I don't need a library of all the commercial loads out there or all the BC's. I can find those out on my own and as we've seen lately, many of those are wrong anyway. Coriolis was recently added to Exbal, but it's only in inches and doesn't integrate into the solution. I don't want to have to do yet another calculation when preparing for a long range shot. The option to integrate in multiple units would be nice. Another nice feature would be to have the program itself print out a miniturized drop chart that could be taped to a stock, etc. Just rambling...

 

[jmason]

Sure would be nice to see a program with G1, G7 and spindrift and coriolis that can be integrated into the firing solution in MOA.

Coriolis was recently added to Exbal, but it's only in inches and doesn't integrate into the solution. I don't want to have to do yet another calculation when preparing for a long range shot.
.

BTW I bought the full version of exbal too and sold it to buy LB3. Much better set IMO.

LB3 does what your asking above. Check a box to turn it on, or check a box to not use it. Very simple.