Thanks. That's what I've done when I seat primers, after having uniformed the primer pockets.
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Primer crush…does it matter?
- Thread starter Justice1327
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There's a massive logic problem surrounding this issue. People reference benchrest shooters and "top level" competitors. Ok, lets analyze that.
Many of those "top level" shooters believe that actions should have their ignition timed and tuned. Not just to the trigger, but the whole ignition system. They believe pin fall is super important for accuracy. They believe the weight of the firing pin spring (spring rate) is also super important. They will expend as much effort as necessary in the action to make sure there is no drag on the cocking piece or firing pin. They will use tiny shims to alter the spring rate. They will polish cocking pieces. They will polish bolt shrouds and alter their dimension. They will ensure there is no sear drag by altering cocking piece dimensions. On and on... and every legitimate shooter fully understands the importance of ignition tuning and timing, and most everyone is on board with the fact that the SMALLEST possible variable is worth tuning in those actions.
Yet all this push back on positioning the primer to the same distance each time? Is it so unbelievable to think there's an optimal position of that primer which will result in the best possible and most forgiving timing?
Nope, it's not unbelievable. It is logical, and it is fact. Some are unaware of that fact, or even disagree with that fact, but it doesn't change the fact from being real.
I'm not arguing about it anymore, because there is nothing to argue. If uniformity is the goal, the merits of this can be quite easily stepped through logically based on what is already known and agreed upon in these rifle systems. Lots of people lack the ability to think properly. It doesn't mean something is wrong with them... but it certainly means they will not be able to solve the same problems as others. We all seem to have different strengths, and logic is hard to come by for some.
So if primer seating depth doesn't matter, then pin fall and spring rates can't matter either. None of it.
Just received a message from a customer this morning, (which is what prompted me to post today) saying how he didn't believe it, but he has seen a drastic reduction in "flyers" since adopting my primer seating depth testing method with our CPS and measuring with our PrimeWhere. It's the only thing of consequence he's changed and is seeing a definite improvement. He said further "Thank you for this, and don't give up. Some of us may be skeptical, but just keep working on us, people need to know this. I'm going to listen much more to what you have to say going forward" He's on this forum, but specifically asked I not share his name... because he doesn't want to be targeted by the mob. It's for him I'm making this post. So you can sort your primers, every single one... or you can use a CPS and uniform the dimensions during the seating op, and also have the easiest priming experience available. You don't have to be a "top level" competitor to see benfits from all of this. It's up to you.
Keith, (the original video) hasn't called me to talk about a CPS, to my knowledge. He hasn't asked me how to setup a primer seating depth test. Some of the people beating him, and his team, have. Yet that's not what any of this is about for me. Hardly anyone competes. The best shooters I've ever met, are not competitors. It's the recreational shooters and hunters that stand to benefit the most from this. There are some very specific things that most people are not doing correctly that are keeping them from having the shooting experiences they could, and priming is a major one. More than most realize... and that is the message here. I wish I could bring you all here to our facility and help you tune your guns and show you first hand. You might show up a skeptic, but you wouldn't leave that way unless you've determined ahead of time to be a skeptic no matter the outcome. (provided you showed up with a rifle that can be tuned)
I'd like to give a big thank you to our/my supporters and customers here on this forum. You guys are awesome! Keep pushing fellas... you'll never know just how well you can shoot until you really dedicate yourself to the discipline for a while!
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Many of those "top level" shooters believe that actions should have their ignition timed and tuned. Not just to the trigger, but the whole ignition system. They believe pin fall is super important for accuracy. They believe the weight of the firing pin spring (spring rate) is also super important. They will expend as much effort as necessary in the action to make sure there is no drag on the cocking piece or firing pin. They will use tiny shims to alter the spring rate. They will polish cocking pieces. They will polish bolt shrouds and alter their dimension. They will ensure there is no sear drag by altering cocking piece dimensions. On and on... and every legitimate shooter fully understands the importance of ignition tuning and timing, and most everyone is on board with the fact that the SMALLEST possible variable is worth tuning in those actions.
Yet all this push back on positioning the primer to the same distance each time? Is it so unbelievable to think there's an optimal position of that primer which will result in the best possible and most forgiving timing?
Nope, it's not unbelievable. It is logical, and it is fact. Some are unaware of that fact, or even disagree with that fact, but it doesn't change the fact from being real.
I'm not arguing about it anymore, because there is nothing to argue. If uniformity is the goal, the merits of this can be quite easily stepped through logically based on what is already known and agreed upon in these rifle systems. Lots of people lack the ability to think properly. It doesn't mean something is wrong with them... but it certainly means they will not be able to solve the same problems as others. We all seem to have different strengths, and logic is hard to come by for some.
So if primer seating depth doesn't matter, then pin fall and spring rates can't matter either. None of it.
Just received a message from a customer this morning, (which is what prompted me to post today) saying how he didn't believe it, but he has seen a drastic reduction in "flyers" since adopting my primer seating depth testing method with our CPS and measuring with our PrimeWhere. It's the only thing of consequence he's changed and is seeing a definite improvement. He said further "Thank you for this, and don't give up. Some of us may be skeptical, but just keep working on us, people need to know this. I'm going to listen much more to what you have to say going forward" He's on this forum, but specifically asked I not share his name... because he doesn't want to be targeted by the mob. It's for him I'm making this post. So you can sort your primers, every single one... or you can use a CPS and uniform the dimensions during the seating op, and also have the easiest priming experience available. You don't have to be a "top level" competitor to see benfits from all of this. It's up to you.
Keith, (the original video) hasn't called me to talk about a CPS, to my knowledge. He hasn't asked me how to setup a primer seating depth test. Some of the people beating him, and his team, have. Yet that's not what any of this is about for me. Hardly anyone competes. The best shooters I've ever met, are not competitors. It's the recreational shooters and hunters that stand to benefit the most from this. There are some very specific things that most people are not doing correctly that are keeping them from having the shooting experiences they could, and priming is a major one. More than most realize... and that is the message here. I wish I could bring you all here to our facility and help you tune your guns and show you first hand. You might show up a skeptic, but you wouldn't leave that way unless you've determined ahead of time to be a skeptic no matter the outcome. (provided you showed up with a rifle that can be tuned)
I'd like to give a big thank you to our/my supporters and customers here on this forum. You guys are awesome! Keep pushing fellas... you'll never know just how well you can shoot until you really dedicate yourself to the discipline for a while!
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Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
Consistencies: That what's makes the reloads better. Hard to seen a .001 or 2. Plus are the pocket all the same? A finger test I don't think that cuts it's. I am was happy when my groups are at 1/2" @ 100yds in most of my rifles "BUT". I have always work towards closing the groups down to as small as possible. New way come about, and thinking change too. I am not a match shooter, but I sure work toward that type of grouping, that they achieve @ 1000yds. They are putting in groups of 4" or less at that ranges. I was happy at 3" at 500yds, and that works in most hunting I do, because I held my ranges to that. Now I am looking to extend my ranges out to 700+ or so yards. I going after ground squirrels and that type of animal. So a 3" group @ 500 won't work, and at 700yds. Ground squirrels are only about 2" wide. Now the rifle I used to take ground squirrels is a 220 Swift. It's groups are at almost a bug hole @ 100yds. No problem at taking squirrels at 400yds. So consistencies is the name of the game. How do you achieve that?
Now I kind of dropped off using a rifles for about 15 years and picked up a bow. Now I have moved back to rifles, and been doing a lot of catching up on reloading practices. Even back then I work toward being consistence. There are those that: Make it happen, Watch it happen, and the rest Wonder what happen. I try and stay in the first two, but sometime I do wonder what is happening. If you don't try, you'll never get anywhere.
Now I kind of dropped off using a rifles for about 15 years and picked up a bow. Now I have moved back to rifles, and been doing a lot of catching up on reloading practices. Even back then I work toward being consistence. There are those that: Make it happen, Watch it happen, and the rest Wonder what happen. I try and stay in the first two, but sometime I do wonder what is happening. If you don't try, you'll never get anywhere.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
You've about said it all!!!There's a massive logic problem surrounding this issue. People reference benchrest shooters and "top level" competitors. Ok, lets analyze that.
Many of those "top level" shooters believe that actions should have their ignition timed and tuned. Not just to the trigger, but the whole ignition system. They believe pin fall is super important for accuracy. They believe the weight of the firing pin spring (spring rate) is also super important. They will expend as much effort as necessary in the action to make sure there is no drag on the cocking piece or firing pin. They will use tiny shims to alter the spring rate. They will polish cocking pieces. They will polish bolt shrouds and alter their dimension. They will ensure there is no sear drag by altering cocking piece dimensions. On and on... and every legitimate shooter fully understands the importance of ignition tuning and timing, and most everyone is on board with the fact that the SMALLEST possible variable is worth tuning in those actions.
Yet all this push back on positioning the primer to the same distance each time? Is it so unbelievable to think there's an optimal position of that primer which will result in the best possible and most forgiving timing?
Nope, it's not unbelievable. It is logical, and it is fact. Some are unaware of that fact, or even disagree with that fact, but it doesn't change the fact from being real.
I'm not arguing about it anymore, because there is nothing to argue. If uniformity is the goal, the merits of this can be quite easily stepped through logically based on what is already known and agreed upon in these rifle systems. Lots of people lack the ability to think properly. It doesn't mean something is wrong with them... but it certainly means they will not be able to solve the same problems as others. We all seem to have different strengths, and logic is hard to come by for some.
So if primer seating depth doesn't matter, then pin fall and spring rates can't matter either. None of it.
Just received a message from a customer this morning, (which is what prompted me to post today) saying how he didn't believe it, but he has seen a drastic reduction in "flyers" since adopting my primer seating depth testing method with our CPS and measuring with our PrimeWhere. It's the only thing of consequence he's changed and is seeing a definite improvement. He said further "Thank you for this, and don't give up. Some of us may be skeptical, but just keep working on us, people need to know this. I'm going to listen much more to what you have to say going forward" He's on this forum, but specifically asked I not share his name... because he doesn't want to be targeted by the mob. It's for him I'm making this post. So you can sort your primers, every single one... or you can use a CPS and uniform the dimensions during the seating op, and also have the easiest priming experience available. You don't have to be a "top level" competitor to see benfits from all of this. It's up to you.
Keith, (the original video) hasn't called me to talk about a CPS, to my knowledge. He hasn't asked me how to setup a primer seating depth test. Some of the people beating him, and his team, have. Yet that's not what any of this is about for me. Hardly anyone competes. The best shooters I've ever met, are not competitors. It's the recreational shooters and hunters that stand to benefit the most from this. There are some very specific things that most people are not doing correctly that are keeping them from having the shooting experiences they could, and priming is a major one. More than most realize... and that is the message here. I wish I could bring you all here to our facility and help you tune your guns and show you first hand. You might show up a skeptic, but you wouldn't leave that way unless you've determined ahead of time to be a skeptic no matter the outcome. (provided you showed up with a rifle that can be tuned)
I'd like to give a big thank you to our/my supporters and customers here on this forum. You guys are awesome! Keep pushing fellas... you'll never know just how well you can shoot until you really dedicate yourself to the discipline for a while!
So is measuring primer seating depth the very top priority in precision reloading procedures? More important than accurate powder charge weight? Bullet seating depth? Concentricity? Outside neck turning? Powder selection. Primer selection? Neck tension? Case neck annealing? Case neck lubrication? HBN coating? Measurement and sorting by bullet bearing lengths? Is primer crush and measured primer seating depth the most important task?
It's one thing to say something is critical to precision reloads. More meaningful when prioritized against all the other steps beneficial to precision ammunition.
Not saying anyone has a duty to present any such priority ranking system. But without one, how could one ever know where VooDoo fits into the priorities? And when VooDoo would be just as beneficial?
Again..., if it's the highest of priorities, it must be amongst the very best kept secrets in the world of benchrest competition.
It's one thing to say something is critical to precision reloads. More meaningful when prioritized against all the other steps beneficial to precision ammunition.
Not saying anyone has a duty to present any such priority ranking system. But without one, how could one ever know where VooDoo fits into the priorities? And when VooDoo would be just as beneficial?
Again..., if it's the highest of priorities, it must be amongst the very best kept secrets in the world of benchrest competition.
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Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
Talking about seating depth. Yes everything is included too. Some of the brass work is only one time. Others are recurring every time. We set our own priorities, and that's up to each of us. Why it's such a big deal on adding another step. You don't have to do it, but there's others that want to learn. This is what this form is all about. Nobody is saying that has to be done. Live and learn. Some people are like horse. You can lead them to water, but you can't make the drink. Just because you don't do that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. That fine by me, Don't do it. The rest of us may want to try it or do something else. Me I am set up to due the primers.
One competetive shooter once said,"extreme accuracy is rarely one big (changes) thing but many small things".
The weather here is pretty warm as it is most everywhere so I am not shooting much now but soon I will and will try this "small thing" and see if my groups improve and become more consistant.
If others try it also please report results so we can get a consensus of the rewards of this "small thing".
The weather here is pretty warm as it is most everywhere so I am not shooting much now but soon I will and will try this "small thing" and see if my groups improve and become more consistant.
If others try it also please report results so we can get a consensus of the rewards of this "small thing".
Orkan I am looking forward to your video on the primer depth guage tool you talked about in your last video about your primer seating tool.
Looks cool.Give me a heads up when the video comes out.Thanks
Old Rooster
Looks cool.Give me a heads up when the video comes out.Thanks
Old Rooster
And they should be available soon?
They've been available since launch.
We are out of the indicator stands at the moment... but have the rest on hand. -----------
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Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
I've got mine. It took awhile but they came through.
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
@orkan did the follow up video you mention around 20:50 in this video where you'll outline the primer depth seating test come out yet?
I think the most important point you make in this video is the misunderstanding about linear movement of the primer in the pocket. Just because the seating stem in the CPS (or a tool like the 21st Century click tool) moves a certain amount doesn't directly translate to the primer moving in the pocket that same amount.
Primer seating depth can and will vary based on insertion speed, pressure, and the tolerance stack of the components and tool. That's one of the main reasons I abandoned hand priming actually, my hands are damaged and I can't run a hand priming tool consistently enough to get good primer seating. But the CPS plus a gigantic knob for my hands solved that problem in a hurry.
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