Pressure from base loads in Quickload

[Darkker]

Please consider that you are using a case, bullet and twist that doesn't align well with current cases. There is no trustworthy load data.

Unfortunately that's another reason you don't want to put to much stock in QL math.
Despite what the QL warriors want to pretend to know, twist rate just really doesn't matter to anything resembling classic small bore reloading.


Let's bring this back home for the OP's question, Is QL an accurate measurement tool?
No, it doesn't measure anything. Let's change the topic to roller coasters, and see if this helps people think more clearly.

If you wanted to know how many negative G's a certain part of the ride created, would you measure it?
Or would you ask a young boy with ice cream all over his face, to give you a guess of negative G's; and pretend that was an accurate measurement?

Now if you had a moment of clarity, and realized asking a boy to guess about a subject he doesn't understand, isn't actually a measurement.
Would it be reasonable to walk around asking random adults, to go ask that same boy the same question you asked?
When you inevitably get a different answer, is it reasonable for those random adults to tell you you asked your question wrong; when you were trying to get your measurement via ignorant child's opinion?

Everyone here should know who Jeff Siewert is, and you really need to read his book. When you learn why he doesn't use quackLoad, and politely laughs at those that ask him about it's "accurate utility". Then you'll wish you spent the $300 on a Pressure Trace instead of a pinball machine.

 

[Veteran]

Now that you have some real world #'s from the loads you shot you can enter these into QL along with your case cap etc, adjust the burn rate factor and weighting factor to suite your velocity #'s and you should get fairly accurate #'s from QL. JMO

Yes, this.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Unfortunately that's another reason you don't want to put to much stock in QL math.
Despite what the QL warriors want to pretend to know, twist rate just really doesn't matter to anything resembling classic small bore reloading.


Let's bring this back home for the OP's question, Is QL an accurate measurement tool?
No, it doesn't measure anything. Let's change the topic to roller coasters, and see if this helps people think more clearly.

If you wanted to know how many negative G's a certain part of the ride created, would you measure it?
Or would you ask a young boy with ice cream all over his face, to give you a guess of negative G's; and pretend that was an accurate measurement?

Now if you had a moment of clarity, and realized asking a boy to guess about a subject he doesn't understand, isn't actually a measurement.
Would it be reasonable to walk around asking random adults, to go ask that same boy the same question you asked?
When you inevitably get a different answer, is it reasonable for those random adults to tell you you asked your question wrong; when you were trying to get your measurement via ignorant child's opinion?

Everyone here should know who Jeff Siewert is, and you really need to read his book. When you learn why he doesn't use quackLoad, and politely laughs at those that ask him about it's "accurate utility". Then you'll wish you spent the $300 on a Pressure Trace instead of a pinball machine.

I get your dismissive post and all the shade you are throwing at QL, but the question remains.

How do you pick a charge weight for shot #1? Pressure Trace and all testing can tell you what to do with shot #2 and beyond, but shot #1 still has to be taken.

QL is not some kid with ice cream on his face. It is a simulation based on cartridge parameters and powder parameters. It is missing many things, but it is still mathematical modeling. Maybe it needs updating. Maybe it needs better powder inputs, maybe it needs more refinement of the base model. To pretend you can get better results by doing something after firing a round is missing the point.

 

[tim_w]

I get your dismissive post and all the shade you are throwing at QL, but the question remains.

How do you pick a charge weight for shot #1? Pressure Trace and all testing can tell you what to do with shot #2 and beyond, but shot #1 still has to be taken.

QL is not some kid with ice cream on his face. It is a simulation based on cartridge parameters and powder parameters. It is missing many things, but it is still mathematical modeling. Maybe it needs updating. Maybe it needs better powder inputs, maybe it needs more refinement of the base model. To pretend you can get better results by doing something after firing a round is missing the point.

I told you EXACTLY how to do it. You would also be hard pressed to find any new cartridge outside the extremes where you coukd not find a case simi,ar in size.

You were also exp,aimed how you need to exactly configure quickloads fields to reduce the error spread. The EXACT case dimensions and H2O fill mass. The exact barrel rifling spec and bore area. You can also use another cartridge of same caliber and can use a listed powder to help tune the vel heat energy so its more in tune. But again chances are you will find a case that has a powder volume within 1-7 gr of yours and that will get you a good estimate to start or use to then help with that "first shot" estimate.

What you are trying to do it seems is define the problem in a way to fit the answer you have already picked.

You just used default QL data rather than doing a bit of basic investigative research t9 find a simi,ilar case. Just assumed it was something so wildly unique no other case was remotely representive. The issue is you did not even check. You took the way of least effort and got bit.

This thread is now just beating a dead horse and IMO of little value going forward unless there is a turn in direct or focus. I'm out.

 

[MagnumManiac]

There are several similar programs that WILL give you start loads and ways to determine them. The easiest, if data exists, is to look at similar cartridges and guesstimate, sometimes it's close and other times it's not in the ballpark.
QL is not the be all, end all, it never has and even those powder/bullet companies that have used it for their data found out it can be very wrong…

Cheers.

 

[Horse1]

I use QL. I like QL. I plug in my COAL and H2O capacity and bbl length.

What I want from a QL output is an approximation of where pressure and velocity are going to peak. I don't really care what my powder charge is when I get to peak velocity, I'm "there". Start low, work towards the peak using the chrono or until I find the accuracy I want and call it good.

I guess I don't think I need a PhD in Chemical Engineering, Metallurgy, internal/external ballistics, aerodynamics, nor geometry to load projectiles into cases with powder that doesn't have readily available data.

Of course, I'm not trying to shoot 230 A-Tips sub-sonic out of a 30-378 using Bullseye either.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I told you EXACTLY how to do it. You would also be hard pressed to find any new cartridge outside the extremes where you coukd not find a case simi,ar in size.

You were also exp,aimed how you need to exactly configure quickloads fields to reduce the error spread. The EXACT case dimensions and H2O fill mass. The exact barrel rifling spec and bore area. You can also use another cartridge of same caliber and can use a listed powder to help tune the vel heat energy so its more in tune. But again chances are you will find a case that has a powder volume within 1-7 gr of yours and that will get you a good estimate to start or use to then help with that "first shot" estimate.

What you are trying to do it seems is define the problem in a way to fit the answer you have already picked.

You just used default QL data rather than doing a bit of basic investigative research t9 find a simi,ilar case. Just assumed it was something so wildly unique no other case was remotely representive. The issue is you did not even check. You took the way of least effort and got bit.

This thread is now just beating a dead horse and IMO of little value going forward unless there is a turn in direct or focus. I'm out.

I get what you are saying now. It seems like a bit of a regression, but is definitely possible. I think the wildcatters back in the day used to do that.

Thank you for being EXACT. You do you.

 

[Michael Lares]

This is not addressed to me, but my perspective is as follows:

You said, "I have had great experience w QL.
It is usually very close and I fine tune it by varying burn rate for each
batch of powder to match actual measured velocity."

That has been my experience as well until recently. As stated in the second response to the OP's original post my experience with Magpro tells me the burn rate is way low and Ramshot Hunter way high.

My guess, no data, is QuickLOAD is not keeping up with burn rate changes. Lot to lot variation has always required recalibration but nothing like what I am seeing now.

Your questions are spot on. Yes, I do weight brass volumes, it was hot, but I adjusted temperature, throw weights were within .02 grains.

I believe what I am seeing recently is well beyond the usual lot to lot burn rate variation.

Just my $.02.

If you're using all of or part of QL entries in program, you're running around in the fog expecting to get where you want. As has been said here before, you need to put the sweat into the program to get good results.
1) Starting pressure
There are people really smart who have come up with formulas to calculate this. I found them years ago, and with minor changes seem to be right on. This does make a difference. Huge if you compare with shooting at / touching lands versus shooting with a lot of jump.
Look in the info in that box and see what they say about seating bullet against the lands versus psi.
2) Weighting factor
There are also charts can be found on internet listing weighting factors for cartridges. QL is close on some and not so much on others.
3) Measuring case volumes and adjusting QL a must
4) Shooting with a muzzle break can also mess it up. Shoot without muzzle break and compare to with brake. You might be shocked. I know I have been. Especially on the bigger volume cases like magnums. I've even had to add length of brake to barrel to make it work with a brake that's too tight. ( doesn't release enough pressure)
5) Temperature adjustment is huge. Absolutely necessary. And I mean ambient AND temp of cartridge. ( is it in your pocket at 60* or is it outside at ambient?!)
6) Weigh your bullets
7) If you want to really amaze yourself, look for the article explaining bullet time in the barrel versus harmonics / acoustics. This is relating to using QL. He furnishes a complete chart with most barrel lengths and the corresponding BT. ( bullet time in barrel.
You then can go to QL and actually see this # bottom right quadrant listed above amount of powder burnt.
8) I've learned my most accurate loads have the absolutely the lowest muzzle pressure I can get with all the combinations.
9) I put the barrel length / powder burnt graph in bottom left quadrant. If I see the vertical purple line showing all burnt , I'm happy. If I see it in middle of graph I'm excited. This has a direct result on how much unburnt powder flying out end of barrel which also causes muzzle psi to go up = NOT GOOD !!!!!

FYI
Personally, I load for accuracy with the most velocity with perfect BT and 100% burn on powder with a full case even compressed some times.
This is not all possible all the time. But it's what I strive for. Shouldn't have to say but I will, ALL within PSI you want to be at.
If you don't care about beating the crap out of a gun, go for it. I know I used to!!
Barrels are expensive and the the time wait very frustrating.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I told you EXACTLY how to do it. You would also be hard pressed to find any new cartridge outside the extremes where you coukd not find a case simi,ar in size.

You were also exp,aimed how you need to exactly configure quickloads fields to reduce the error spread. The EXACT case dimensions and H2O fill mass. The exact barrel rifling spec and bore area. You can also use another cartridge of same caliber and can use a listed powder to help tune the vel heat energy so its more in tune. But again chances are you will find a case that has a powder volume within 1-7 gr of yours and that will get you a good estimate to start or use to then help with that "first shot" estimate.

What you are trying to do it seems is define the problem in a way to fit the answer you have already picked.

You just used default QL data rather than doing a bit of basic investigative research t9 find a simi,ilar case. Just assumed it was something so wildly unique no other case was remotely representive. The issue is you did not even check. You took the way of least effort and got bit.

This thread is now just beating a dead horse and IMO of little value going forward unless there is a turn in direct or focus. I'm out.

OK, following this method. I have dug out the nosler manual. Found a 30 cal(300 WSM) with 74 gr of water. My case measures 75.2. They say 60.5gr through 64.5gr of N550. If I put 60.5gr in my case, that is nearly a bomb! 58.8gr was excessive bolt lift.

308 Norma Mag shows 73.0gr water, but no N550.

300 RSAUM is 65.6gr of water. N550 57.5-61.5gr….close, but 10 gr less capacity.


Based on my judgement, max is about 57gr. I'm going to try 20 at 56.2gr.

So, what number would I have pulled from a manual to get a start load?

I'm honestly not bringing this up to be rude. I used to do this. Using this relational method, my ladder would have been 58.5gr - 60.5gr. All way hotter than I should shoot in this rifle.

Now that I have a Ba to work with, I feel much closer to safe. Even at 56.2gr, and 2960fps, I'm probably only beating 30-06 by 80 fps.

 

[slikmrc]

I don't think the 300 WSM is a good fit for comparison, it is closer to 79 or 80 grains of water. Vithavouri shows 49 to around 55 grains of N550 with a 30-06 and 165 to 168 bullets. This would be a better fit for finding a starting load with your case. Don't have experience with CEB bullets but would think you should be able to push them in the high 3000's. N550 may be a little to fast of burn rate for your set up. I load a lot 165/168 weight bullets in 30-06 AI, 3100 to 3150 fps is the norm. I use H4350 and slower burn rate powders, StaBall 6.5 may be an option if case fill is an issue with the mono bullet.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I don't think the 300 WSM is a good fit for comparison, it is closer to 79 or 80 grains of water. Vithavouri shows 49 to around 55 grains of N550 with a 30-06 and 165 to 168 bullets. This would be a better fit for finding a starting load with your case. Don't have experience with CEB bullets but would think you should be able to push them in the high 3000's. N550 may be a little to fast of burn rate for your set up. I load a lot 165/168 weight bullets in 30-06 AI, 3100 to 3150 fps is the norm. I use H4350 and slower burn rate powders, StaBall 6.5 may be an option if case fill is an issue with the mono bullet.

….but how would you know that? 30-06 is 62-65gr of capacity…vs 75.2gr for 300 Sherman. Nosler showed 300 WSM as 66.1-76.0gr of water.

 

[VarmintBob]

I find QuickLoad to be a very reliable pressure indicator if you get it setup correctly and your load is more than 85% full. I's love to check your QL setup. Can you post a screen shot of your QL?

 

[Old Rooster]

Well what do you think wildcatters did before quick load even existed? They made an educated guess and started low. I didnt say I used the exact QL data. It's just a refference. Even book data is not exact. You get what data you can, use some common sense and start low. I always use a chrono so with one round loaded low I get a pretty good idea off the bat where I am. Then of course normal work up applies.

Well put buddy!I would add to have a log book and be sure to enter dates,loads powders,primers,and temperture as Veteran mentioned.I have had temp stable powders react a tad different from winter loads to summer in my rifles.Could be the density of cooler air to hot air difference.
KEEP NOTES!Don't let this oppurtunity to learn valuble information for your rifles get lost as we all forget.Notes in a log book and time of the year,temp and conditions of weather keeps me grounded.

 

[ARlife4me]

ql is like building a race engine.............you have all the parts, now just adjust to get it running smooth..............i tried using (going off published data) with what was listed................almost all were way over pressure..............it's published, so is it right........................i've always used published data as that's the only way i've ever reloaded................i read (off of this and other sites) you need a chrono...................sounds very logical......................something i need to do...........