Presses

[SidecarFlip]

I picked up the abc's of reloading for starters.
looks like there are some good deals on the Rock chucker as well as the lee classic.

Reading and absorbing what you read as it pertains th what you plan on doing is the best first step and always should be the firat step......

If you come into my shop, one wall is dedicated to books on different disciplines of machining, welding and shop procedures. I purchase books constantly because when you quit learining new things, you might as well be dead.

 

[SidecarFlip]

wear is caused by a lot more than lack of lube. Torquing or twisting of the ram as it comes under pressure will cause uneven wear. It something that is in every known press in the world, wether it bee a 600 ton Verson of an RCBS Partner. It's gonna happen. If you have nothing to stablize the ram during movment, and even more when under pressure you will see the bore develop an eleptical bore. Then you add in varibles like threads and being out of square (nothing can be made perfect). If you can screw something into a female thread, it's gonna move because there's clearence between the male and female thread. How much depends on the quality of the threads. You use a pair of guide rods on the Forster, but they also have clearence built into them. Every dodad that you add to the press creates an option for error (shell holder, indexing top plate, etc). That's basic engineering. The trick is to have the die as square as you can under max pressure and also keep the case as square as you can to the centerline of the die. Some presses do this better than others of course
gary

I agree, in essence. Lack of proper lubrication of sliding surfaces accelerates wear.....

There are torsional forces at work in a reloading press but the prime wear point is the bearing surface between the base casting and the ram and proper lubrication of the point will reduce sliding wear and mitigate torsional wear (if present) as well.

It's the responsibility of the frame casting to maintain squareness, that's why it's ribbed and usually massive.... and I'm reasonably sure when the press frame is machined, the bore in the top of the frame casting and the base are line bored, then the top is threaded, most likely on one CNC machine in multiple operations. It's as square and parallel as the machine's inherent tolerances can make it.

As far as thread mated components are concerned the laterial movement directly relates to the major and minor root diameter of the thread, the style of thread, the pitch and the fit attained. That's called lash and can be eliminated entirely through the use of take up locking collars (you'll find them on all reloading dies by the way).... all about travel screws on machine tools, most of which are square shouldered threads...

Large Presses (something I work with everyday) have bronze wear plates on the sliding surfaces that are adjustable for wear and large presses are usually pressure or flood lubricated or both and lubricated with an extreme pressure lubricant similat to way oil. It's a boundary lubricant, that is, it provides an oil film between the metal sliding surfaces and that's exactly what occurs on the ram of a press that's properly lubricated.

It's all about lubrication of sliding surfaces.....

It also directly relates to resizing brass......lightbulb

 

[robin12]

Reading and absorbing what you read as it pertains th what you plan on doing is the best first step and always should be the firat step......

If you come into my shop, one wall is dedicated to books on different disciplines of machining, welding and shop procedures. I purchase books constantly because when you quit learining new things, you might as well be dead.

I have a motto that is very similar.

The man who says he has nothing more to learn is either a fool or he is dead.

 

[boomtube]

"Any press will not work "

Okay, I'll take your word for it, everyone should know his limits but any press will work for me.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Reading and absorbing what you read as it pertains th what you plan on doing is the best first step and always should be the firat step......

If you come into my shop, one wall is dedicated to books on different disciplines of machining, welding and shop procedures. I purchase books constantly because when you quit learining new things, you might as well be dead.

If your really serious about precision reloading, I then have to recommend Fred Sinclair's book. I've kinda lived by what Fred wrote thirty years back, and it's never let me down. I will also say right here that I've never been afraid to pick the phone up and call somebody that knows.

I bought my first press on advice from Bob Milek and another guy that I knew that they had an idea what was going on. (Milek is the regarded father of handgun hunting). I bought dies from advice from Fred Sinclair, and was often scoffed for speding too much money. Fred helped setup my first powder measurer on the phone, and I've never regreted asking him. I've also learned that the concept of spending a lot of hard earned cash dosn't always get you what you want. I kind of a tightwad, and prefer to only buy something once & be done with it. My brother is exactly the opposite. He has about $1000 worth of worn out presses laying under his loading bench this morning, and is using a Green Machine that I rebuilt for him a few years back. Otherwise there would be about $1200 worth of used presses under his bench. My brother inlaw uses a Lee cast iron something or another press and kinda likes it, but he ordered a Co-Ax a couple weeks back after watching me size 270 mag cases and 30-06 cases. He had to try it out on about twenty five 30-06 cases. I told him to just come over here and use my press anytime he wanted, but he said he had to have one (got very deep pockets anyway). Now he's interested in seaters, and I kind know that I'll be teaching him the in & outs of precision seating this spring. (as long as he dosn't get in the way of my spring fishing). That all came about while looking over my shoulder while seating 6mm bullets in my 6/250 cases. Now he wants a 6/250AI like mine.

gary

 

[SidecarFlip]

Tricky....

(I like that by the way...)

My reloading, as it is, is tucked away. I have a machine and fabrication shop so the 'bench' as it is, is a multi-use workbench for precision gaging (has an LSS surface plate and wood tool boxes) and when I reload, I pull the hard parts off a shelf and clamp them to the bench, excepting bullet seating. I do that in the kitchen with the press clamped to the wife's island in the middle. Seating don't require excess pressure so the granite lip on the island serves me well (with appropriate coushioning between the clamps and the countertop.....

I keep everything on shelves above the bench. Most all my reference materials pertain to shop practice, welding methods and things related to metalworking. I have a couple reloading books, that's about it.

A lot of things metalworking can correlate with reloading.....

 

[Trickymissfit]

I agree, in essence. Lack of proper lubrication of sliding surfaces accelerates wear.....

There are torsional forces at work in a reloading press but the prime wear point is the bearing surface between the base casting and the ram and proper lubrication of the point will reduce sliding wear and mitigate torsional wear (if present) as well.

actually if the slide is in perfect alignment and not under a load there should be very little wear due to the clearences setup in the build. But when you induce stress from the travel of the ram alone you create wear points. Then you add much higher pressures from a sizing operation and nothing is in alignment anymore. Lube helps, but most lubes will wipe themselves away under high pressures unless you goto a heavy oil or light grease. The Co-Ax has very little torsinal stress due to the way it was designed. The unguided ram from an "O" or "C frame" will show tortional stress. That's why they will wear the bore for the ram in an eliptical fashion.

It's the responsibility of the frame casting to maintain squareness, that's why it's ribbed and usually massive.... and I'm reasonably sure when the press frame is machined, the bore in the top of the frame casting and the base are line bored, then the top is threaded, most likely on one CNC machine in multiple operations. It's as square and parallel as the machine's inherent tolerances can make it.

The frame must absorbe the stresses from sizing. But it also transfers that stress at the sametime to the weakest poing in the mechanism. That would be the link between the ram and the fulcrum below. When it goes past it's yield point the ram moves out of perfect alignment. The threaded top (or adapter) are always done with a tap, and you add any error that is in the machine alignment and spindle bore (that's why you almost always single point barrel threads).

As far as thread mated components are concerned the laterial movement directly relates to the major and minor root diameter of the thread, the style of thread, the pitch and the fit attained. That's called lash and can be eliminated entirely through the use of take up locking collars (you'll find them on all reloading dies by the way).... all about travel screws on machine tools, most of which are square shouldered threads...

A typical .875-14 thread is setup for about 70% contact in a near perfect enviorment. The clearence is measured off the pitch diameter and not the root or O.D. The use of a jam nut will not bring all the threads into full contact unless you apply a lot of torque on the nut and measure the stretch. Typically a jam nut is there to keep the threads in place and not much more. If you can screw the male thread into the female thread, there is clearence. With some luck you maybe able to pull into full contact the first two or three threads without putting fifty foot pounds of torque on it. Also keep in mind that your dealing with a female thread that was cut with a tap on somekind of a machine center or drill and tap operation. Where as the plug was probably done on a CNC lathe. This will also give you two completely different venues of lead error (it's always in there). In this case with the adapter plug and the .875-14 thread you actually will nmore than double the clearence at the smallest diameter. These threads are not ground, and are not super precision threads (nature of the beast). What this means is that the die (in this case) is moving under extreme pressure from sizing (200 psi will move it without much trouble). This is why a good inline die in an arbor press is usually better



Large Presses (something I work with everyday) have bronze wear plates on the sliding surfaces that are adjustable for wear and large presses are usually pressure or flood lubricated or both and lubricated with an extreme pressure lubricant similat to way oil. It's a boundary lubricant, that is, it provides an oil film between the metal sliding surfaces and that's exactly what occurs on the ram of a press that's properly lubricated.

It's all about lubrication of sliding surfaces.....

It also directly relates to resizing brass......lightbulb

the days of flooding bearing pockets with lube is dead. The best methods now use oil injection with a very high load capability. They typically use an oil that is fairly light weight (say about 20 weight) that will solidify with contact from air. The idea is that light weight oils penetrate better in the the bearing surface and thaen solidify to stay there. A good quality 10K rpm spindle will only recieve about two drops of oil every 45 seconds at the velocity, or run in a mist condition (soon to be outlawed). Bronze bearings are also being replaced with graphite epoxy compound bearings that seem to last much longer under pressure. With these you only need about 1/10th the lube, and have extremely low compressability with near zero memory while maintaining a near perfect alignment over their life span.
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

Tricky....

(I like that by the way...)

My reloading, as it is, is tucked away. I have a machine and fabrication shop so the 'bench' as it is, is a multi-use workbench for precision gaging (has an LSS surface plate and wood tool boxes) and when I reload, I pull the hard parts off a shelf and clamp them to the bench, excepting bullet seating. I do that in the kitchen with the press clamped to the wife's island in the middle. Seating don't require excess pressure so the granite lip on the island serves me well (with appropriate coushioning between the clamps and the countertop.....

I keep everything on shelves above the bench. Most all my reference materials pertain to shop practice, welding methods and things related to metalworking. I have a couple reloading books, that's about it.

A lot of things metalworking can correlate with reloading.....

I need to buy a new surface plate! An 18" x 24" granite plate. Need a grey one (they are harder) in lab grade or better.
gary

 

[SidecarFlip]

There are a couple (here) with non-metallic slide pads, however most are bronze and lubricated, either flood or injected via oilways in the pads... We even have a tryout Bliss with alemite fittings on the slideways....

Line boring and threading is the accepted machining practice in production machining and I'm 99% sure that's how the press frame is machined. Thread chasing is reserved for prototype application. I know, I do prototype work here all the time...

Wear as it pertains to any reloading press (which can't be compared to the cycling of any commercial press because the cycling rate will almost always be many times greater than a hand operated reloading press) really don't apply.

What does apply is proper spot lubrication of sliding surfaces to extend the useful life of the reloading press.

Everyone has their 'favorite' reloading press. Mine not be yours and vice-versa. All reloading presses can bebefit from proper lubrication of surfaces that move in relationship to each other nothwithstanding.

 

[Zep]

Robin12,

The ABCs of Reloading is a good start. As mentioned by others, read, read, read. I also got some pointers from Lee's book. But I have to warn you both are a bit dated but still worth reading in my opinion.

There are many other books. I have a copy of Lyman's I will get into this winter, also Sierra's. I have even watched some very good reloading DVDs.

Just be careful, some shooters will tell you metallic reloading is a walk in the park but I personally don't see it as such. Try to find a mentor you have confidence in and read, read, read. Also keep in mind not everything you read may be correct so use common sense and your own judgement and when you have a question ask it here and every other place you think you will get a good answer.

I have also learned a lot from calling the dealers. Sinclair's has always been very helpful for me. Sierra as well. When you call Sinclair ask to speak to a tech, their techs have helped me when their original salespeople could not. When ever I speak to a tech anywhere I have confidence in I ask them for reading or DVD suggestions, this has given me direction.

Regarding equipment, don't let anyone kid you, to do it right costs bucks. I started out using Redding and I have been very happy so far. I am going to use Forster for my next project.

Frankly, if you are new to shooting I would just stick with factory ammo for a few years. Things are different than they were even a few years back, there is a lot of very, very good factory ammo that may serve your current needs.

Just go slow, read, ask questions and be very careful.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I totally agree with this statement for a couple reasons.

One, you get to collect brass fron fired cartridges--yours...

Two, factory ammo has come a long way in the past decade and the wide array of loads and rojectiles are fantastic.

"Frankly, if you are new to shooting I would just stick with factory ammo for a few years. Things are different than they were even a few years back, there is a lot of very, very good factory ammo that may serve your current needs"

 

[Trickymissfit]

There are a couple (here) with non-metallic slide pads, however most are bronze and lubricated, either flood or injected via oilways in the pads... We even have a tryout Bliss with alemite fittings on the slideways....

Line boring and threading is the accepted machining practice in production machining and I'm 99% sure that's how the press frame is machined. Thread chasing is reserved for prototype application. I know, I do prototype work here all the time...

Wear as it pertains to any reloading press (which can't be compared to the cycling of any commercial press because the cycling rate will almost always be many times greater than a hand operated reloading press) really don't apply.

What does apply is proper spot lubrication of sliding surfaces to extend the useful life of the reloading press.

Everyone has their 'favorite' reloading press. Mine not be yours and vice-versa. All reloading presses can bebefit from proper lubrication of surfaces that move in relationship to each other nothwithstanding.

actually one of the very best bearing for the tie down bars on a press is cast iron that's scraped to fit the rod diameter. That Bliss probably uses Ampco bronze bearings which is a completely different animal from bronze as most think of it. Most rams are fit fairly loose, and all the squareness is built into the die setup. Have not worked on a Bliss in many years
gary

 

[boomtube]

"(Milek is the regarded father of handgun hunting)."

Mr. Milek would likely regard and suggest Elmer Keith better fits that label.

 

[marioq]

So. As another new reloader, I have a question. I was at the SCI show here in Vegas today and I went to the RCBS station and saw the guys. I asked them about reloading for me, 338 Lapua, 300 mag, 270. I have a JR3 that is old and single action... He did not think that the round would fit and I have not tried it yet as I am waiting for the gun and rounds. Either way, Anyone try this combo? DOes it work or should I just start looking for another press? I bought the other parts in pieces so I do not need a whole kit but just curious....
Thanks
Mario