Pleasant surprises with my old .270 winnie

[Phil Rizzo]

That's not true, at all. Not sure where you read 560 is not stable, but the internet is full of wrong information. Most load development methodologies are just plain wrong, unscientific and not statistically sane, yet they persist.
The N500 series is their line of high energy powders and the 560 is a slow burning powder.
If it states a charge should fill to compressed and you aren't compressing you should, perhaps, look at your COAL vs Sammi spec.

N560 is twice as stable as CFE223. .97 vs 1.70

I can promise this in addition

That's not true, at all. Not sure where you read 560 is not stable, but the internet is full of wrong information. Most load development methodologies are just plain wrong, unscientific and not statistically sane, yet they persist.
The N500 series is their line of high energy powders and the 560 is a slow burning powder.
If it states a charge should fill to compressed and you aren't compressing you should, perhaps, look at your COAL vs Sammi spec.

N560 is twice as stable as CFE223. .97 vs 1.70

Higher load density promotes several desirable results. BUT!
N560 can't always be compressed. In fact, it tells me where it can, either a faster burn rate powder MIGHT be used, or the case size is minimal for the bullet. Depends on bullet size, and desired performance.
I've go some FF load results from N560 to show off, and there is no way my load density was higher than 90%.
I was 500fps under max, easily. You just never know.

It is hard to find, but R23 loves 30/06 based cartridges like 270, 25/06, 280 and the improved versions. It is stable. And fast, yet it burns cooler than H4831, a legend in its own right.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

I I've played around with heavy for caliber bullets in my .270 and .270 WSM. Once I hit 165 gr. on up, I get keyholes. Your elevation has a lot to do with it as well.

Yep. Before using the berger calculator I wouldn't have imagined stabilizing 170s in a 1:10 was possible even at my elevation.

 

[k jensen]

TL;DR: 1:10 twist .270 winchester at 7750 ft elevation can sling lonnnng 170 grain bullets seated super long with great stability at 2915 fps with a big charge of VV n560 out of a 22" barrel. Blew my mind how little case volume this powder takes up.

Rifle: late 80's Remington 700 ADL, 22" 1:10 twist barrel. (My first big game rifle) Brass: early 90s vintage remington. Primers: CCI large rifle.

Most bullets that would stabilize (or so I thought) in the 1:10 are not exactly high bc wonders so I've been seriously hankering for a 7 prc just to try to stretch my comfortable bullet energy range a bit. Alas, I'm a farmer (read not wealthy) and a tinkerer. My favorite thing to do is try to achieve great results with stuff I already have, on the cheap.... so while goofing around with berger's stability calculator I found that their 170gr elite hunter/ extreme outer limit bullets (.336 g7 BC) were rated as 'very stable' out of my 1:10 twist barrel *at my elevation* (7750'). So I bought a box to play with, and some VV N560 powder (next best thing to RL26).

These bullets are 1.5" long, but my mag box is incredibly long- I can seat as long as I want- and my throat is really long apparently, so seating depth with the burger's boat tail to body junction seated only .250 into the case neck still gives me about .70 thou jump.

Worked up a load starting at burger's indicated minimum and found it to be so light that it was clearly not pressuring up properly judging by how the firing pin dent looked on the primer. Jumping up a few grains, then some careful working up a loooong ways with a ladder test got me up to normal pressures and found a couple nodes. One a good ways below max, and a nice wide one from comfortably below max right up to max with the fps only varying 15 fps for 1 full grain.

Settled on the middle of the node @ 2915 fps. Brass looks great, primers look about like the factory Remington primers after firing, so far pockets are nice and tight still. Need to do some more testing but first groups are printing 3/8 to 1/2". The wind started howling by the time I was finishing up and they opened up to 1" but I think I found my load.


These bullets at 2915 out the pipe are still well over supersonic at 1800 yards, and retain 1432 ft lbs energy at 1000 yards, and 1700 ft lb at 800 yards.

The N560 is not filling the case like the load info I have says it should. 58.9 grains is only getting to just below the bottom of the case neck junction- far from compressed- book says it should be 102% case fill at the recommended max of 55. 5 grains.

With the less volumous powder and the super long COAL, I'm able to stuff way more powder in there without pressure than berger's load info says I should. Still a bit stumped as to why, other than possibly my remington brass must have much more volume than brass berger used to get their info.

Really digging this n560.

I got me to wondering: had anybody else has found such good results from this bullet/ powder combo?

I am using N560 in my 270 with 150 grain projectiles with 58.5 grains of powder. My rifle also has a long throat which means that I can seat the projectiles further out and increase case capacity.
I am no where near a compressed load at that charge rate. Awesome cartridge.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

I

We have two vintage Remington 270's here obes an ADL and the other, a BDL.
Finally shot out the BDL's barrel and replaced it.

I'm curious to know if you are aware that P. O. Ackley played around with the .270.
Maybe, A.I. (Ackley Improving) yours might give you that extra zing you're looking for.

Remember reading that he said the .270 wasn't worth ackley-izing, it was already too overbore- more powder wouldn't equal much more velocity with the powders available then (pressure limits).

This is not necessarily true today with the plethora of super slow burning powders. I will be doing an ackley version or possibly a Gibbs, before I get too old to care, just to be different.

I'm already a bit above most factory 7 mag loads.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

I

Remember reading that he said the .270 wasn't worth ackley-izing, it was already too overbore- more powder wouldn't equal much more velocity with the powders available then (pressure limits).

This is not necessarily true today with the plethora of super slow burning powders. I will be doing an ackley version or possibly a Gibbs, before I get too old to care, just to be different.

I'm already a bit above most factory 7 mag loads.

Look at the Sherman also, he gets the goods out of the case while maintaining adequate neck length. Dies can be purchased with the reamer and gauge also.
Or possibly the reamer and gauge can be rented

 

[Stefan Wild]

I can promise this in addition
Higher load density promotes several desirable results. BUT!
N560 can't always be compressed. In fact, it tells me where it can, either a faster burn rate powder MIGHT be used, or the case size is minimal for the bullet. Depends on bullet size, and desired performance.
I've go some FF load results from N560 to show off, and there is no way my load density was higher than 90%.
I was 500fps under max, easily. You just never know.

It is hard to find, but R23 loves 30/06 based cartridges like 270, 25/06, 280 and the improved versions. It is stable. And fast, yet it burns cooler than H4831, a legend in its own right.

LoL gotcha. Book says compressed. Yours are not compressed. Your MV is 500 fps low.
I see no problems here. Not at all.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

It worked like a charm forming brass, then I discovered a 4000+ degree burn temp along with the rest.
But R23 netted a tad over 3550 with a 115gr.
That was the end of testing!

 

[cajun]

The 270 ackley never took off. Which is odd because the 280 did. Only 7 thou difference in bullet diameter and same parent case. I love my 280 ackley. With an 8 twist it's a beast. Even with a 9 it's not terrible. I think most older 270's were 10 twist.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

The 270 ackley never took off. Which is odd because the 280 did. Only 7 thou difference in bullet diameter and same parent case. I love my 280 ackley. With an 8 twist it's a beast. Even with a 9 it's not terrible. I think most older 270's were 10 twist.

That's necked down and blown out 280AI brass above.
Peterson is tough AND consistent. But it ain't cheap

 

[cajun]

That's necked down and blown out 280AI brass above.
Peterson is tough AND consistent. But it ain't cheap

Yes been using Nosler. It's gets a bad rap but mine has not been bad. Have some peterson when the nosler pockets go.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

I can refresh your Nosler 270 supply, for CHEAP.
New in box. Think it's 200 total

 

[Brad Norman]

TL;DR: 1:10 twist .270 winchester at 7750 ft elevation can sling lonnnng 170 grain bullets seated super long with great stability at 2915 fps with a big charge of VV n560 out of a 22" barrel. Blew my mind how little case volume this powder takes up.

Rifle: late 80's Remington 700 ADL, 22" 1:10 twist barrel. (My first big game rifle) Brass: early 90s vintage remington. Primers: CCI large rifle.

Most bullets that would stabilize (or so I thought) in the 1:10 are not exactly high bc wonders so I've been seriously hankering for a 7 prc just to try to stretch my comfortable bullet energy range a bit. Alas, I'm a farmer (read not wealthy) and a tinkerer. My favorite thing to do is try to achieve great results with stuff I already have, on the cheap.... so while goofing around with berger's stability calculator I found that their 170gr elite hunter/ extreme outer limit bullets (.336 g7 BC) were rated as 'very stable' out of my 1:10 twist barrel *at my elevation* (7750'). So I bought a box to play with, and some VV N560 powder (next best thing to RL26).

These bullets are 1.5" long, but my mag box is incredibly long- I can seat as long as I want- and my throat is really long apparently, so seating depth with the burger's boat tail to body junction seated only .250 into the case neck still gives me about .70 thou jump.

Worked up a load starting at burger's indicated minimum and found it to be so light that it was clearly not pressuring up properly judging by how the firing pin dent looked on the primer. Jumping up a few grains, then some careful working up a loooong ways with a ladder test got me up to normal pressures and found a couple nodes. One a good ways below max, and a nice wide one from comfortably below max right up to max with the fps only varying 15 fps for 1 full grain.

Settled on the middle of the node @ 2915 fps. Brass looks great, primers look about like the factory Remington primers after firing, so far pockets are nice and tight still. Need to do some more testing but first groups are printing 3/8 to 1/2". The wind started howling by the time I was finishing up and they opened up to 1" but I think I found my load.


These bullets at 2915 out the pipe are still well over supersonic at 1800 yards, and retain 1432 ft lbs energy at 1000 yards, and 1700 ft lb at 800 yards.

The N560 is not filling the case like the load info I have says it should. 58.9 grains is only getting to just below the bottom of the case neck junction- far from compressed- book says it should be 102% case fill at the recommended max of 55. 5 grains.

With the less volumous powder and the super long COAL, I'm able to stuff way more powder in there without pressure than berger's load info says I should. Still a bit stumped as to why, other than possibly my remington brass must have much more volume than brass berger used to get their info.

Really digging this n560.

I got me to wondering: had anybody else has found such good results from this bullet/ powder combo?

I liked your article and appreciate the detail you put into it. In my mind, the .270 Winchester is truly the best all-around hunting caliber in America. I began long ago with my Dad's '06 and then my Brother and I started hunting with rifles in .308. All was good until my Grandfather left me his .270 before he died. I took it Mule Deer hunting once, really just for sentimental reasons, and never went back! LOTS of other cartridges are great and work fine on everything from Coyotes to Elk, but the .270 has some extra magic in it somewhere. It didn't take me long to learn all the good things people have said about the .270 for nearly 100 years are all true.

I finally wore that old factory barrel down over the decades and elected to spruce the old girl up a bit. I dropped the old Remington action into a chassis, put on a 22" carbon-wrapped 8-twist tube on, and started tinkering with the heavier high BC bullets. I love the 175 Sierra TGK, although I don't push them as fast as you are with 170 Bergers. I also have a long magazine (AICS box going into my folding XLR stock) and I long-throated the chamber. Using really stable H1000, with a moderate pressure load, I get a bit under 2800 FPS with good ES/SD numbers. As you mentioned, the heavy long bullets really maintain their speed and energy WAY out there. I can push them a bit faster, but why? I'm good with the numbers I'm getting, especially with a 22" barrel. When you wear your barrel down I really recommend bumping up to a 1:8 for the extra stability. Mine also shoots just fine with the old 150-grain bullets I hunted with for so long. Happy hunting Mr. Magoo!

 

[Mr. Magoo]

Look at the Sherman also, he gets the goods out of the case while maintaining adequate neck length. Dies can be purchased with the reamer and gauge also.
Or possibly the reamer and gauge can be rented

Is that using 270 win brass or something else?

I have lots and lots of good .270 brass....one of the reasons I stick with it.

280 AI is very impressive for the amount of powder it burns, I can't help but think a .270 with the shoulders blown forward and sharper would be equally efficient.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

I liked your article and appreciate the detail you put into it. In my mind, the .270 Winchester is truly the best all-around hunting caliber in America. I began long ago with my Dad's '06 and then my Brother and I started hunting with rifles in .308. All was good until my Grandfather left me his .270 before he died. I took it Mule Deer hunting once, really just for sentimental reasons, and never went back! LOTS of other cartridges are great and work fine on everything from Coyotes to Elk, but the .270 has some extra magic in it somewhere. It didn't take me long to learn all the good things people have said about the .270 for nearly 100 years are all true.

I finally wore that old factory barrel down over the decades and elected to spruce the old girl up a bit. I dropped the old Remington action into a chassis, put on a 22" carbon-wrapped 8-twist tube on, and started tinkering with the heavier high BC bullets. I love the 175 Sierra TGK, although I don't push them as fast as you are with 170 Bergers. I also have a long magazine (AICS box going into my folding XLR stock) and I long-throated the chamber. Using really stable H1000, with a moderate pressure load, I get a bit under 2800 FPS with good ES/SD numbers. As you mentioned, the heavy long bullets really maintain their speed and energy WAY out there. I can push them a bit faster, but why? I'm good with the numbers I'm getting, especially with a 22" barrel. When you wear your barrel down I really recommend bumping up to a 1:8 for the extra stability. Mine also shoots just fine with the old 150-grain bullets I hunted with for so long. Happy hunting Mr. Magoo!

Thanks for the kind words and info. I probably will go faster twist, in case I get to hunt at lower elevations. I Hadn't seen those Sierra 175s. Might have to try them when I do get a new tube.


While I do like speed, I like accuracy first. Since it's been so windy here, accuracy testing has been a little pointless so I'm mostly finding my limits, pressure wise, to save time for when I get a break in the wind and rain. I'll probably work down from the top. The most accurate load will win even if it's not near max. I look for the load that produces the least flyers, but most importantly puts the first shot where I aim for the first shot every time. I've had really good success with that method over the years whether with varmint or big game rifles.

I have h1000, staball HD, and a few other good powders in this burn rate. Will likely burn out this barrel playing around and seeing what works or doesn't so I don't burn out the expensive replacement doing the same.