Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

[WildRose]

I gave him a fair honest chance what else do you want. Just keep my mouth shut, and lay in the corner like the other dogs that dont get a email.

Try keeping in mind that they have literally thousands of customers buying a million plus bullets per year.

Eric was kind enough to take the time to address this thread personally and publicly rather than keep it quiet and handle it through email or PM.

Like I said, if you aren't happy with their product there are great alternatives out there to avail yourself of.

Trashing good people on this forum however won't get the results you are hoping for.

 

[Broz]

Bowhuntwhites, ill second the" post the videos" id like to see aswell.

I will 3rd this. I too would like to see the videos. Then we all can see what you are referring to and decide for ourselves.

.

 

[Broz]

At first I thought maybe there is a problem that could be resolved and could help. Even though I have never had an issue with over 100 kills I was open minded. But you guys talking trash has discredited your own stories. This is why I want to see for myself. I am still willing to believe you, but am asking to see your proof. Not just a couple bullets that are tarnished and look like they were dug out of a dirt bank after they laid there long enough to corrode. Many of us that have had great success with Bergers and have posted pics of the animals, wound channels, destroyed vitals etc. So why would you not want to support your experiences with your video's ?

In addition, the only reason I am still posting on this thread is to help if there is a problem. If all the data is shown maybe it can help a future hunter or save an animal from a slow death.

Jeff

 

[birddog67]

Just like was said about president Obama about his birth certificate , lets see the vids and put this to rest .

Not doubting there is enought people on this forum that video kill shots . If you are able to post I would so people could make up there own mind . Some people would still not believe but I would just for my own peace of mind . Just my .02 not that you need any more but just my opinion . I always keep an open mind till all facts are in .

 

[bman73]

I havn't shot a lot of annimals with Bergers yet but the ones I have definately had huge amounts of internal/external damage, as in the internals were turned into externals. Having said that a cow elk I shot this spring with a 300 grn OTM had a fist sized hole blown out the off side and walked off, and took 3 more rounds from a 338 win mag without even flinching before she finnaly fell over. If you shoot enough annimals you will come across ones that just don't know that they are dead and don't play by the rules. I too would like to see the video of these annimals you say you have. Don't see what the big deal is when your so adamant that you have this proof. As far as the trash talking goes, it most definately isn't helping your credibility or case. As stated by Wildrose if your not happy try something else, nobody is forcing you to use Bergers and there are many other alternatives out there. Am I making excuses for him not getting back to you when he said he would, no, defiantely not good customer service but he is in charge of running a fairly large company and may have had other things to deal with at the time

 

[Pdvdh]

Time for a sedative? Holy moly... How many other manufacturers' representatives do you find engaging the hunting community on an open forum, where they expose themselves to the risk of forum members getting out-of-hand - going overboard?

I've followed this Thread pretty closely, and I'm not seeing undue fault or failure in Berger's customer relations effort. When you place deadlines and demands on others, realize those are your deadlines and demands, and they may not fit into the work day, work week, or work month of others.

While reading this thread, I understood Eric to take interest in a potential cause for some reported instances where the VLDs haven't expanded on game. Never read where Eric dismissed the credibility of these reported incidents. He expressed the interest in improving their bullets for their customers, and trying to maximize customer satisfaction. He's already taking measures to test some closed-tip bullets. If the closed tip bullets don't expand reliably, I'd like to know. And now I may, following Berger's testing.

Again, how many other manufacturers take the chance of troubleshooting on a public forum? I'm not sure what more folks expect? I found myself impressed with the level of concern and effort displayed. Which is why I posted that I viewed Eric's effort, interaction, and communications to be very commendable. I don't understand the trashing.

The real value of this Forum is the expression of member experiences - experiences that aren't restrained due to employee/employer repercussions. Experiences reported from end users of products that don't really owe anyone anything. Which is why I expect to read of different experiences and read of differing conclusions. There will be differences of opinion and differences of perspective. Those can be expressed without lobbing accusations, ultimatums, and fatal blows into the communications.

 

[mtnwrunner]

First post regarding all this. It's actually really simple----you use them or you don't. Period.
I'm certainly not in the league as "The Broz" as far as kills are concerned, but I've shot a fair amount of animals with various bullets. For me, the bergers performed just like they said they would and the barnes performed just like the company say they do---which I don't care for.
One of my personal philosophies is that if some company or service ****es me off, thats it, I'm done. I'll go somewhere else.
I would like to see the video AND, I'd actually like to see the birth certificate also.............But hey, thats just me.

Randy

 

[bullridety]

I think all you guys are overlooking the best evidence there is! Look at page #1 and the first post with the picture of the bullet! That evidence right there is better than anything out there! its better than any video!!! That is a picture of a Berger bullet that connected on a large animal at 626 yards! The bullet is what we are talking about here people, NOT videos. You can watch a video all you want and see the shot, but you wouldnt know exactly what that specific bullet looked like! So Broz, now your calling me a liar and saying i didnt shoot an elk with this bullet? If you want you can take a sample of the DNA off of it and check for yourself! There is no bull **** here! Im an honest open-minded person, and what for you to say this is a bullet that is tarnished and laying in the ground for a long period of time is bull ****. That bullet was pulled out from underneath the hide and stuck in my pocket and then brought into the house for your information! So what do you expect a bullet to look like after its been shot by and animal???? all nice and shiny, not tarnished, no blood, no riflings??????? If so i got a box of them down stairs i can take a picture of to make you happy. Even has all the Berger bullet information for you on the box.

 

[Eric Stecker]

Bowhuntwhities and Bullridety,

I apologize for the disappointments I have caused you. It is my genuine intension to constantly improve. I'll admit that I am far from perfect but that won't stop me from doing what I can to make things better.

My ultimate goal is for shooters to have an enjoyable experience no matter what they do. This is key to the long term success of the shooting sports and our protection as law abiding gun owners.

I am an industrious person and won't find myself unable to take care of my family. When you get past the notion that one's priority is making money then you find what it is that you are truly passionate about. I am fortunate that I am able to work in a field that is so close to my passion which is the strengthening and securing of our rights under the 2nd amendment.

At the end of the day I'm not a super hero or a mad scientist. I am just a regular guy who enjoys doing what I can to make the shooting experience better so more and more people are shooters. I am drawn to these forums because they do just that, help shooters.

I'll admit that at this moment I have 200 emails in my inbox. The oldest is dated 6-21-12. I get about 100 emails every day. Those that I don't answer are mostly due to the fact that I don't have an answer. These are never dismissed or deleted. I'll admit that it is a failing that I don't get answers more quickly and for this I apologize.

I'll add that until now all our terminal performance testing has been done by Walt and I. He is in Phoenix, AZ and I am in Fullerton, CA. There is a bit of efforts involved in conducting these tests. Since they are so disruptive we have adjusted our plan. Bryan Litz will take over testing for terminal performance. We are in the process of securing the material he will need to do these tests. This takes time. We don't have answers now but we will keep moving forward.

Further, when searching for a root cause to any issue it is required that all possibilities are considered. I no more blamed the shooter for what happened then I would dismiss the shooter as the potential cause. Until we know what happens we can't discount any potential root cause or we put limits on the situation that could make us blind to the true root cause.

Questioning the shooter or rifle or scope or conditions or the animal is not meant to be insulting but rather part of the troubleshooting process. It is vital to the process that we don't stop asking questions. If you took any of my comments as insulting to you personally I apologize as this was not the intent.

Please continue shooting with whatever bullet brand you can trust. We will continue to work on our end and maybe someday down the road we will have done enough for you to consider giving Berger another chance.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Scot E]

I think all you guys are overlooking the best evidence there is! Look at page #1 and the first post with the picture of the bullet! That evidence right there is better than anything out there! its better than any video!!! That is a picture of a Berger bullet that connected on a large animal at 626 yards! The bullet is what we are talking about here people, NOT videos. You can watch a video all you want and see the shot, but you wouldnt know exactly what that specific bullet looked like! So Broz, now your calling me a liar and saying i didnt shoot an elk with this bullet? If you want you can take a sample of the DNA off of it and check for yourself! There is no bull **** here! Im an honest open-minded person, and what for you to say this is a bullet that is tarnished and laying in the ground for a long period of time is bull ****. That bullet was pulled out from underneath the hide and stuck in my pocket and then brought into the house for your information! So what do you expect a bullet to look like after its been shot by and animal???? all nice and shiny, not tarnished, no blood, no riflings??????? If so i got a box of them down stairs i can take a picture of to make you happy. Even has all the Berger bullet information for you on the box.

Bullridety, Could you clarify something for me. The 338 bullet pictured in your first post on the left. Are you saying that is from a shot taken this fall and you dug it out of the dirt and it looked just like that already?

BullRidety and bowhuntwhities, I realize you feel that guys are busting your balls here. I get that. But you have to understand our side too. We don't know you two from Adam. And it is a fact that there are some idiots on this forum, some of which have a real ax to grind for who knows what reason. It is our job to try and assign legitimacy to threads such as this based on the evidence presented. Not always an easy job. Having said that, most guys experienced with shooting know bullets fail for one reason or another and most hunters that have used Bergers has seen non-expansion and blowup issues. That is just a fact. Not bashing Berger here at all as I have seen AB, partitions and Barnes have serious issues too.

My point is simply that I do believe there are issues here. I even think Eric acknowledges this. The key is what causes it. This thread is valuable if we can keep it on track. The issue with the closed tips is something I haven't heard of before and seems to at least make sense as to the potential cause of the rare issue of non-expanding Bergers. And Berger agrees and is doing testing because of this thread. You should be at least excited and appreciative of that point.

The reality is things do slip through the cracks at companies as busy as Berger. I would say this, if you are going to cry foul play on their part you better have some other personal experience that backs up your claims other than just "they ignored my e-mails so they are automatically scumbags trying to hide a major design flaw in attempts to con all of us out of a few more dollars. " Let's take a deep breath here and keep this beneficial for all. Guys do make legitimate mistakes. Happens to me all the time.

Back to the 338 bullet. I personally have a problem with that 338 bullet. The one on the right looks to be at least a legitimate candidate for a possible problem. Looks like it tumbled to me as I have seen this before. This can be caused from no expansion. And the tarnished look appears accurate. But the 338 isn't tarnished, it is corroded and oxidized which typically takes some serious time in the elements. Also, at 1152 yards, what was the remaining velocity? If it is under 1800 fps by Bergers definition it should expand very little if any. My guess is that you were very close to the 1800 fps threshold. Many guys I know want to see 1900 fps to be safe. Did you shoot the bear at a baiting station? Could it have been a different bullet that you dug up. If not are you sure you hit the bear solid, or maybe just a extremity hit? Just trying to make sense of this.

At the end of the day, the Berger idea of the perfect hunting bullets is a one I subscribe to and all of these things helps improve them to be the best they can be.

Scot E.

 

[Pdvdh]

bullridety,
Could you tell us if there's a visible hole in the tip of the jacket on the 180 gr 7mm bullet you recovered from the elk? Or is the jacket material compressed together at the tip such that no hollow point is visible? Can you insert a needle into a hole in the tip of the jacket more than 1/8" in depth? Thanks.

 

[Fla shooter]

I have read this post and commented on my three kills with berger 7mm 180s,all dropped in tracks 500yds the longest complete passthru .but I have checked 2of the 5 boxes on my shelve n found many I cannot get a needle in!! The ones it will go in about 1/4 " I have started checking the ones before loading them . went back n checked the ones I already loaded an pulled the bullets that are clogged

 

[bullridety]

Here is another pic of the 7mm 180 VLD. it is opened at the tip and i can stick the staple about 1/4" in before i bottom out. However im not sure if this bullet had an enclosed tip before i shot it because i wasnt ever aware of something going to happen like this. The 338 bullet was immediately recovered after the shot this spring, it was a definite hit on the bear and the bullet has been in the ash tray of a truck since this spring until last week.

 

[bullridety]

Tumbling of this bullet is out of the question. the entrance hole was the exact diameter of this bullet, and if the bullet tumbled i doubt i would have hit my target perfectly as i did at 626 yards... and also why would just this bullet tumble if i stated all my exact velocities ect?? I havent ever had a problem with my bullets tumbling. and i think the chances of this bullet tumbling and hitting the hide exactly on the nose or the rear end of the bullet is pretty slim.

Eric, I am not offended at anything you have said on here, some other posts I am! Such as being called a liar ect., this will be some good information and figure out the problem to better the bullet.