Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

[mtwarych]

I am not a Berger shooter but I have an opinion on what is called a failure of any brand of bullet.

I bowhunted for many years before I ever fired a bullet at any animal.

In 1984 I was hunting "mule deer" in Northern CA. I shot a buck at 2 yards with an arrow from a head on angle. The arrow hit the soft spot on the throat, completely passed thru the buck and exited the chest cavity at the rear hip. It was a very good shot.

The deer ran about 800 yards, in fact we lost the deer that night and returned at first light in the morning. We recovered the buck about 20 yards from where we gave up.

We field dressed the animal and found out that the broadhead had basically hit everything considered as vital and cut the aorta completely.

We all stood there wondering how that deer went as far as it did with the damage done to its vitals. The thing I think caused the deer to go as far as it did is the fact the animal figured out I was a human at the exact same time the arrow hit it.

I believe the animal was then super charged on adrenalin and just ran on that. Half a mile with what should be no blood pressure.

Since that day, I refuse to shoot at an animal that appears to be wound up for any reason. When we are looking at an animal, we can read if that animal is scared, being pushed or running to escape whatever. Everybody knows how a crip can just suck up lead or arrows before the animal expires.

I know any projectile can "fail" I believe we are the ones who can prevent the "fail" by not shooting if there is any sign of the animal being stressed already. How many of us have lost an animal when that animal is shot while comfortable and grazing? not me yet.

 

[StrutNut]

I am very interested in this discussion as I fully intend to purchase some 215's for my new 300 win mag. I am also going to try the new Hornady's but my initial thoughts on these rounds is very impressive. I have had Partitions fail and some Black Hills softpoints fail. It happens. Very impressed by the way Berger is handling this.

 

[COBrad]

Shot a 5 point bull today at 1098 yards with a Berger 7mm 180 gr. hunting VLD. The bullet worked just as the description I have read indicated it should; the bullet passed through a shoulder, hitting only the thin part of the shoulder blade, then scrambled the lungs.
I shot a cow two years ago at 100 yards with a .270 WSM shooting 140 gr. Berger hunting VLD's. Same performance, a few inches of penetration and the inside of the chest cavity was destroyed.

 

[cowboy]

We have no new information but we are still working the solution.

This is a frustrating result which compels us to consider things from every possible angle. One consideration is that in our testing, we can duplicate many things but we lack the rifle used and more importantly we suspect, the animal shot.

Reports of hunting bullets not doing what is expected when it comes to terminal performance is consistent among all brands. It compels us to consider what are some common characterstics of such reports. Could it be that the makeup of a given animal can play role in how the bullet performs?

We are working on this situation from two different directions. We have a material engineer going over how we make our bullets to see if we can identify something that will produce the reported results.

We are also working on a new testing lab that will allow us to expand our volume of testing. The objective here is to increase our testing to produce more refined terminal performance data. We expect that increased testing will not only clarify our bullets performance but we will also be observing these tests to see if we can reproduce the results in some unexpected way.

This situation continues to be a high priority. I apologize to anyone who believes we haven't taken their report seriously. I am a hunter and I know how extremely frustrating it is when after all the time, money and energy spent on your hunt you watch an animal run off after you pull the trigger.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
President
Berger Bullets

I and my 2 sons have been shooting Bergers since John Burns put Berger into the hunting Bullet business. We have taken more than our fair share of different animals with the Berger bullets.

I had my first "recovered Berger bullet failure" last year out of a bull elk. Long story short it didn't open and turned into a "tumbler". After many different emails back and forth with Berger " no answer", very accommodating and as always very professional.

Why did it not open up - this very same rifle, bullet, powder, primer etc. has taken many elk as well as other game with never a problem. What could I do to not have this reoccur - never got an answer.

I buy my Berger bullets in 500 lot quantities to get the same lot numbers. I had 2 different lot numbers in my reloading room. I took a pin vice with a .027" bit and tested 100 bullets from each lot. One lot # had maybe a half dozen tips that were questionable tip openings. The other lot # had a very large per cent where the holes were either plumb plugged or partially plugged. Here in is where I would look for an answer. In my opinion you form your bullets holding tight OD tolerances and let the ID "fall where it may". Sometimes the tip has a hole and sometimes less than that.

The first Berger bullet failures reported on the net I blew off as they didn't know squat because it had never happened to us. The reports kept coming as Berger became more popular.

I'm checking all my Berger hunting bullets now for tip openings - if one of us has another one that doesn't do it's job after this, that we can prove, that will be it.

So the question I would ask of you and other forum members is - has anyone ever had a report of a Berger not openning up after either uniforming the meplat or at least checking the hole tip with something like a pin vice?

 

[Eric Stecker]

So the question I would ask of you and other forum members is - has anyone ever had a report of a Berger not openning up after either uniforming the meplat or at least checking the hole tip with something like a pin vice?

Closed or sealed up tips is something that was suggested as a root cause early in our review of these reports. This was one of the first characteristics we tested. We went a bit further and purposely crushed the tip closed in an attempt to recreate an extreme example of a closed tip. Our results were that fragmentation still occured.

In spite of these results, we do recommend against meplat tipping but only as a precaution due to our regarding this concern as reasonable even though we haven't been able to prove that it does prevent fragmentation.

In spite of our test results, this situation is being explored further by our material engineer. We are very interested in what happens inside the bullet for reasons that go beyond terminal performance. We have been testing different forming methods and tooling materials. Early results are encouraging.

We have not settled on the conclusion that the condition of the tip has no affect on terminal performance so we will continue to explore this further. We just haven't been able to find something that is certain to produce failures to fragment.

Regards,
Eric

 

[rickiesrevenge]

What impact speeds did you test? Just wondering if it was low speeds like a long range shot (1800 fps) or fast like right out of the muzzle. The reason I ask is that I did a little testing this summer by shooting bergers into wet news paper. The bullets were fired at low speeds with my chrono a couple feet in front of the target. I had bullets not expand and tumble. Impact speed was right at 1800fps.

Aaron

 

[Eric Stecker]

What impact speeds did you test?

Our testing as of late and for some time has been primarily an exploration of the results reported. The velocities tested are the impact velocities reported. 1,800 fps is the velocity we regard as the slowest possible for fragmentation. There are several factors that make this value less of a fine line and more a general or vague rule of thumb.

This is the reason we are developing our expanded terminal performance lab. When it is completed, we will switch our focus to a broad exploration of terminal performance results. These tests will include refining our understanding of at what velocity will each bullets fail to fragment.

I believe the results will provide further clarity on what we know to be true rather than determining an absolute number. One truth that is emerging from our testing is that absolutes when it comes to terminal performance are not applicable.

This doesn't mean that a recommended velocity value is invalid. It does mean that rounded numbers like 1,800 fps is more of a general velocity range indicator than it is a definitive value.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Skavenger]

So if 1800fps is the lowest for a good opening then say the 185 VLD bullets shouldn't be shot at anything much past 800ish without risking a wounding shot versus a kill shot? 900ish for the 210gr...and this is your factory loads. Sound right?

Oh let me clarify that would be in my 300 Wby and your factory loaded 185s/210s...

 

[AaronSkipDavidson]

The Handloader-Sciuchetti Study

This study of bullet penetration was documented in the June 1998 issue of Handloader magazine (Gary Sciuchetti, "The Best Hunting Bullet", No. 193, pp. 40 - 44). The author conducted an exhaustive and apparently well considered analysis of .308 caliber 180 grain bullets.

In order to examine trends in the Sciuchetti data, the penetration test results are plotted for most common bullet brands and designs. These are arranged in four classes:

• Commercial brands are the Federal, Remington and Winchester soft point lead-core, gilding-metal jacketed bullets;

• Conventional bullets are a larger set comprised of simple gilding-metal jacketed, lead-core design offered by the reloading suppliers Hornady, Sierra and Speer, as well as the major ammunition makers;

• Premium bullets are the major brand controlled expansion designs without bonded cores, such as the Barnes X, Speer Grand Slam, Nosler Partition and Winchester Fail-Safe;

• Custom bonded bullets are heavy-jacketed, lead-core controlled expansion designs by custom manufacturers that all feature a lead core bonded to the jacket.

The conclusion that I draw from this study that is relevant to long range hunting, is that as you dip below 2000 fps impact velocity, the chances of errant bullet performance begin to increase. The data clearly shows how one person can report good success, while another reports a lost animal.

Because we can, we have the highest ethical responsibility to play above the margin. Our cartridges can be ranked for effective terminal performance by analyzing the downrange velocity.

The real question for this forum is where a hollow point boat tail bullet design would rank if tested in a similar fashion. I remember reading Elmer Keith describe his testing with long range bullet performance, and he usually had to modify those old closed tipped bullets to get reliable expansion.

I predict that the ability to design a bullet for ultra-consistent terminal performance at low impact velocities combined with consistent and low drag will push a company to dominance for our long range hunting niche market.

 

[Skavenger]

Exactly...hence my question to Eric above...

I know a lot of us love the accuracy of the Berger's but I am curious what the no kidding terminal cut off velocity is for full expansion. It seems varied at best.

Also very curious to see how the new ELD-X shakes out...looks promising.

 

[rickiesrevenge]

After testing bergers at 1800 myself I won't shoot them at game where the impact speed will be less than 2000fps. That is unless I modify the bullets to make them expand at the slower speeds.

Aaron

 

[Skavenger]

Yeah I am on the side of caution myself as far as making sure I don't cause any unnecessary trauma and distress to the animal.

I have not had any issues under 600yds but I haven't had the opportunity to shoot farther on live game yet. I love testing my skill on the steel at 1000yds but with all the things I am seeing I am very hesitant to use a Berger of any kind at 1000yds on an animal since the Velocity is down around 1400fps by then.

 

[couesaddict]

For what it's worth I've seen quite a few animals shot with various weight bergers out of a 300 RUM with very similar and very good results. Not saying I won't ever have a "failure", but it hasnt't happened yet. On the other hand, I shot 200 accubonds out of it for a while and a buddy put three shots through the boiler room of a cow elk at 600 yds and they were all .308 in .308 out with next to no internal shock damage. These were leaving at 3225 fps. Later that year I had two coues tags. One on the San Carlos reservation and one in a state unit. One deer was shot at 705 yds and one at 450 yds, both with the same lot of accubonds as the elk. They both had roughly 4" exit wounds out of the chest cavity. Seemed much less consistent to me in my limited experience so I switched back to bergers. Now using 230 hybrid targets at 3005 fps with excellent results on two kills this year. A buddy shot a coues with it at 712. .308 in, tons of pin holes out and jello inside. I shot a Muley at 570 and experienced very similar results. Honestly the 230's seem a bit more explosive than the 168's at 3500 fps I shot through this gun when I first got it. Wish I would've taken pictures of the wounds but I didn't...

 

[couesaddict]

Further, I have never altered or even thoroughly inspected the tip of a Berger but I don't have near the kills as many of the members in this thread so take this all with a grain of salt. I plan on inspecting to make sure the tips are open from now on just as insurance.