mpayne
Well-Known Member
Your're right!
Paramount 1st shot of the day issues.
- Thread starter Blackbears4ever
- Start date
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After chambering a top name barrel and installing it on a top name custom action the first shots were clean between shots. Even though the barrel was 36" long and a high velocity round, the barrel was copper fouling badly in the last 4" of the barrel. Talking to the action manufacturer the topic was brought up of the copper fouling. He asked how it was cleaned. Sweets, shooters choice and then dry patches. He exclaimed with authority "do not ever shoot with a clean dry barrel" Did you not think of the friction taking place?"He said with no lubricant that bullet is hot and melting on that first shot, especially with a long barrel. The first shot will leave "lubricant behind in a lubricated bore and never expect the fist shot to be with the following shots, especially if it is with a clean dry bore that has melted or scraped a percentage of bullet jacket.
ENCORE
Well-Known Member
The 2 fired primers without propellant, fouls the barrel more than enough. Its a process used by the top inline muzzleloader competitors in the Nation. Lubrication in modern inline rifles can be your enemy and rob you of accuracy. Some guys want to run a wet patch between rounds, then they'll run two dry patches down and think that the barrel is dry, then wonder what happened to their groups. Well known issue with muzzleloaders. That is mostly the reason Western doesn't recommend swabbing between rounds, short of specific barrels.
These muzzleloaders are not sending bullets at break neck speed out the barrel, well unless its a SML rifle, which the Paramount is not. There's very little, if any copper left in the barrel and there's no need to use copper killer/cleaner until accuracy drops off, even with a SML.
My Rock Creek custom barrel will send the first cold bore shot to the same POI as all following rounds. The barrel is cleaned of all lubricants prior to a session and two primers only are used to foul the barrel. This process is used rather shooting BH or SML. With BH velocities are at 2,300fps and with SML velocities are at 2,900fps. I thoroughly cleaned it the other day, including copper. One very faint spot on a patch after 500 or so rounds of both propellants, all bullet to bore.
I resonate with the post that points out that "If you zero for your first shot, you're a hunter. If you zero for subsequent shots, you're a target shooter."
Here is an approach to finding out how much of a difference it makes and whether adjustments to one's aim point might be needed for subsequent shots.
Go to: The Hunting Zero
If, however, your first through 4th shots after cleaning are inside the same 10 inch circle at your max range, count yourself lucky and use the same aim point throughout.
Here is an approach to finding out how much of a difference it makes and whether adjustments to one's aim point might be needed for subsequent shots.
Go to: The Hunting Zero
If, however, your first through 4th shots after cleaning are inside the same 10 inch circle at your max range, count yourself lucky and use the same aim point throughout.
ENCORE
Well-Known Member
If I had a muzzleloader that would not keep my first through 4 or 5 shots at 100yds within an inch, I'd be shooting a different rifle, or use a different method. If the rifle will only shoot 10" groups at 300yds, you need to get closer.
The 10 inch circle is roughly the size of the vital zone in the average deer. It is defined as a 5-inch radius circle centered on the heart. It is, in effect, the dinner plate made famous by Jack O'Connor.
Again, we need to differentiate between what is good enough and what a prideful target shooter strives for.
ENCORE
Well-Known Member
Good enough? Dinner plate accuracy? Honestly, more hunters should take more pride in their shooting.
"Good enough" is exactly what gets so many hunters in trouble every year. Hunters are used to shooting "AT" something, instead of a "spot" on the animal and hitting that spot.
Every season remarks are made, 'I put it right in the boiler room, I know I did and we lost that deer!' Including, 'The shot was perfect and right in the kill zone, but the deer didn't bleed!' The list of comments goes on and on and most of that is from practice that's "good enough".
Having harvested well over 400 whitetails, I pretty much know where the heart and kill zone is. First shots count, as does any follow up shot/s, or additional harvests. There are ways to reduce and/or eliminate that first cold bore shot not hitting the POA. Much of that has already been mentioned.
West Calamus
Well-Known Member
Cold bore shot is exactly right. If you are a paper shooter only, just throw out the first shot. If you are a hunter adjust scope to cold bore shot. Not unless you plan on taking multiple shots at your game then use use your paper shooting .5 moa multiple shot group setting. All in good fun guys (-:.
Blackbears4ever
Member
Wow, you guys are all very experienced and have lots of very valid points. Thank you to everyone who responded to my question.
I use a kill zone of 6" and practice at 200 & 300 yards almost every weekend all year with all my hunting rifles that do double duty as "target rifles". My Paramount is the only long gun I own that has the cold shot issue.
I'm going to try fouling with a couple primers and test at my normal 200 yards. If my first shot prints inside a 3" circle I will accept that. If it does not, a few turret clicks will put the first bullet very close to the group that will follow from subsequent shots. At 200 yards (after the first shot) 2"- 2 1/2" 3 shot groups are the normal. Perfect for adding another Black Bear to my den. Aim small-miss small!!!
I use a kill zone of 6" and practice at 200 & 300 yards almost every weekend all year with all my hunting rifles that do double duty as "target rifles". My Paramount is the only long gun I own that has the cold shot issue.
I'm going to try fouling with a couple primers and test at my normal 200 yards. If my first shot prints inside a 3" circle I will accept that. If it does not, a few turret clicks will put the first bullet very close to the group that will follow from subsequent shots. At 200 yards (after the first shot) 2"- 2 1/2" 3 shot groups are the normal. Perfect for adding another Black Bear to my den. Aim small-miss small!!!
@Blackbears4ever, if you're hunting during the Washington state muzzleloader season, you'll have to use peep or open sights. You can use glass during the modern firearm season on your muzzleloader, though.
See 3.c. on page 85 of the big game regs for this year for the restriction and 4. for the modern firearm exception.
See 3.c. on page 85 of the big game regs for this year for the restriction and 4. for the modern firearm exception.
Blackbears4ever
Member
I have a Knight Bighorn with Williams peep sights for deer & it shoots very well. The Paramount is my long range target gun & will also be used for Black Bears.
MZmoose
Well-Known Member
Blackhorn209 is made from smokeless powder components. That's why I can get 20 or 30 shots thru it before I even think about cleaning it.
I have the 2019 paramount and I haven't noticed a significant issue with the first shot being a significant "flyer". The instructions from CVA for the paramount tell you to fire a primer in the empty barrel before loading the first time after cleaning. I've only been firing one primer instead of two before loading after cleaning.
I've only had my Paramount for a couple months and I'm far from an expert with it. As long as it isn't windy I am getting about 1 MOA out of it. I'm very happy with 1 MOA for a muzzleloader. At this point I feel very confident out to 300 yards if I have time to get a rest and it isn't too windy. Even though I could likely hit a deer with the first shot at 400 or even 500 yards, I feel more confident in my ability to get closer than taking that long of a shot with a muzzleloader. Maybe with more practice I'll be able to extend my range beyond 300 yards but I'm very pleased to have a muzzleloader that I feel very confident in killing a deer with one shot at 300 yards or less.
Almost all my "flyers" with my Paramount have been the result of wind and me not compensating for it correctly. I have noticed the wind drift from the Paramount is more than I expected. Based on my limited experience so far, wind drift is comparable to my 223 Remington. When there is a 20 mph wind, I have a very difficult time keeping the bullet less than 2 MOA at 300 yards. If there is any significant wind, I'm just as likely to make a bad shot on a deer at 400 yards as I am to kill it.
I've only had my Paramount for a couple months and I'm far from an expert with it. As long as it isn't windy I am getting about 1 MOA out of it. I'm very happy with 1 MOA for a muzzleloader. At this point I feel very confident out to 300 yards if I have time to get a rest and it isn't too windy. Even though I could likely hit a deer with the first shot at 400 or even 500 yards, I feel more confident in my ability to get closer than taking that long of a shot with a muzzleloader. Maybe with more practice I'll be able to extend my range beyond 300 yards but I'm very pleased to have a muzzleloader that I feel very confident in killing a deer with one shot at 300 yards or less.
Almost all my "flyers" with my Paramount have been the result of wind and me not compensating for it correctly. I have noticed the wind drift from the Paramount is more than I expected. Based on my limited experience so far, wind drift is comparable to my 223 Remington. When there is a 20 mph wind, I have a very difficult time keeping the bullet less than 2 MOA at 300 yards. If there is any significant wind, I'm just as likely to make a bad shot on a deer at 400 yards as I am to kill it.
