Palma vs Benchrest?

[Bart B]

Depends. mostly on the individual rifle, and the skill of the shooter.

I related to the standard Palma rifle as defined in NRA High Power Rules: max weight of 6.5 kg (13.5 pounds), minimum trigger pull of 1.5 kg (3.5 pounds) and they've typically got 30 to 32 inch barrels. And in calm/stable atmospheric conditions using any free-recoil shooting system, the skill of the shooter's virtually eliminated.

As far as F class rifles, they are also in this same pool of very accurate rifles shooting equally accurate. NRA High Power Match & Any Rifle, Palma, F Class and Long Range benchrest rifles all will average in the 3/10ths to 4/10ths MOA groups but no worse than 6/10ths MOA at 600 to 1000 yards. Their mean radius will be about where their group average is. But the group sizes shot in each ones discipline are vastly different.

 

[rscott5028]

Depends. mostly on the individual rifle, and the skill of the shooter.

F-open rifles are shot at palma matches, from the prone position. Are we calling them palma rifles for the sake of this conversation?

Well if we are than I would say yes. I have f-open rifles that show a propensity to hold sub 1/4 MOA under good conditions. With weight limits of 22 lbs. these guns are built similar to br rifles with the major differnce being stock design.

I have to confess that I don't really know enough about either discipline to have an intelligent discussion.

I was of the impression that benchrest rifles were huge, no-taper barrels and large, heavy, stiff actions and that you still wouldn't be comfortable changing the stock and shooting one prone without a rest.

I guess the terminology that caught my attention was ???
Palma = long and whippy
Benchrest = short and stiff

Perhaps it's just semantics... But, does it translate into practical application for hunters?

 

[rscott5028]

[...]NRA High Power Match & Any Rifle, Palma, F Class and Long Range benchrest rifles all will average in the 3/10ths to 4/10ths MOA groups but no worse than 6/10ths MOA at 600 to 1000 yards[...]

So, how do you reckon that compares to all the .25 MOA factory rifles that I see touted throughout these forums?

...or, are those guys referring to their one or two best 3 shot groups ever?

vs. a custom rifle that will consistently shoot no worse than .6 MOA at long range.

 

[Bart B]

So, how do you reckon that compares to all the .25 MOA factory rifles that I see touted throughout these forums? ...or, are those guys referring to their one or two best 3 shot groups ever? vs. a custom rifle that will consistently shoot no worse than .6 MOA at long range.

The vast majority of rifle shooters tout the smallest group they've shot. Oft times when a rifle's up for sale, the seller sez: "best it's ever done is a bit under 1/4" inch at 100 yards." To which I would reply with a question asking what's the biggest group the rifle's shot. The seller typically responds with: "I don't know.....maybe.....something or whatever...." Then I would say that it sounds to me like your rifle shoots that well maybe 5% of the time; the other 95% is in question and could be as large as a few inches." Then the seller looks dumfounded.

 

[rscott5028]

The vast majority of rifle shooters tout the smallest group they've shot. Oft times when a rifle's up for sale, the seller sez: "best it's ever done is a bit under 1/4" inch at 100 yards." To which I would reply with a question asking what's the biiggest group the rifle's shot. The seller typically responds with: "I don't know.....maybe.....something or whatever...." Then I would say that it sounds to me like your rifle shoots that well maybe 5% of the time; the other 95% is in question and could be as large as a few inches." Then the seller looks dumfounded.

and I thought I was cynical...

I see very few moa/sub-moa groups at the public range. Yet they're all shooting the same Savage, Remington, Howa, etc... rifles that get rave reviews here according to mass quantities of anonymous Internet posters. So, I keep asking myself where all those guys practice and why people pay for custom rifles.

I'm glad I called your hand regarding Palma vs Benchrest. You've provided some good info and plenty to think about.

thanks
richard

 

[sp6x6]

Note that those agg's are the average group size. At least a third to half of them are larger. The size of the largest one represents the real accuracy of the rifle and ammo.

That is where I disagree with you, for example the 10 agg, on your logic, shot 2/3 of the time better, than the 1/3. 66 out of 100. more likely to shoot like that. I find with the wind such a factor for those small 6mm that that is suprising, because the wind blows at the matches, Both these guys that have multipl WR shot 300 wsm and had to figure less wind with them.The conditions are a major factor, just like in hunting.

 

[Edd]

Group sizes are like MPG's on diesel pickups. You check it on every trip until you get what you want then you stop checking and start quoting it.

 

[Bart B]

That is where I disagree with you,

That's ok with me. What percentage of all groups fired are larger than the average of all of them groups?

 

[rscott5028]

That's ok with me. What percentage of all groups fired are larger than the average of all of them groups?

Purely from a statistical vantage, one would assume a normal distribution of the samples with half of the samples above and half below the mean.

 

[Bart B]

Purely from a statistical vantage, one would assume a normal distribution of the samples with half of the samples above and half below the mean.

Exactly.

I think the benchresters should use a shot group's mean radius instead of extreme spread, especially for aggregates which would be the mean radius for all shots fired. Extreme spread's the worst way to measure accuracy as far as how close the shots are to group center when several groups' sizes are averaged for score. But that would take a while to do at each match. If it was done on old targets already fired, some of those record holders based on extreme spreads would no longer claim the prize.