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Out of elevation on a Remi 700 XCR - can anyone help?
- Thread starter Jon2
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Bill Maylor
Well-Known Member
Is their any way you may have mixed up the front and back rings. I did that once with my weatherby. 
I didnt know what to think! Bill Maylor.
I didnt know what to think! Bill Maylor.
Dr. Vette
Well-Known Member
You optically center the scope by returning it to its zero, i.e. its optical center. The ideal is to then know where you want to put that optical center - whether at your 200 yard zero or elsewhere, and that is the usefulness of the Signature rings. Some people intentionally "point" their scope down so that optical center is halfway between what you need for a 100 yard shot and a 600 yard shot. See links at the bottom for more examples.
I intentionally "point" my optical center at a 200 yard zero because the odds of me taking a 500+ yard shot here in Michigan are small and I'd rather add in elevation on rare occasion in the field and keep my scope at optical center for 98% of its regular use. FYI, with Signature rings I've gotten it so close that it has taken only 8-12 clicks to be right on at 200 yards.
He is correct in that it will not make a difference if you install the scope back in the same rings. I was wrong on that one (too late at night, too tired, etc). However if you now take an optically centered scope and use Sig rings (or to some extent a tapered base) to "pre-aim" the scope toward your 200 yard sight in (or elsewhere if you prefer as noted above) then it makes all the difference in the world.
For me, I realized the difference when I took my scope off one rifle with "regular" rings and went to install it on another rifle with Sig rings. I did the "V-cut in a box" trick to try and optically center the scope and was amazed how much distortion there was looking through the scope as I rotated it around. That convinced me that keeping a scope at optical center whenever possible is a very good thing.
This thread may help:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/optical-center-canted-bases-mounting-questions-33310/
And another interesting one:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/rem-700-vs-w-20-moa-mount-question-2038/
Whether it is your rifle receiver that is out of whack or the rings, you are going to have to make your scope higher in the back than the front for it to work on this rifle. This can be cone through tapered mounts, shims added under a mount to "make" a taper, or adjustable rings like the Burris Signatures. It is up to you what route you take.
Dr. Vette
Well-Known Member
So that when it's zeroed through use of a base, ring inserts or shims it's still at optical center. That's right - actually getting a scope right on zero and never having to touch the built-in adjustments. Yes, it's possible and I've done it (though as noted in the post above above a few final clicks are usually needed).
99% of the time no one does it, and thousands of animals are taken each year by just "putting it on paper" using the scope's built-in adjustment. That's a perfectly adequate method.
However, why spend so much time on so many other areas of the rifle and then ignore the "twist" and distortion that we're putting on the light picture going through the scope? This site is filled with people who are anal retentive about the tiniest things with their rifles and want more than just "adequate." I'm usually anal retentive about Corvette things. And, to us, the details matter. If I can spend a little more time and money and be sure that what I see through the scope is as distortion-free as possible, I'll do it.
You can test it for yourself. Take a spare scope you have that has been on a rifle (and has therefore been adjusted away from center), cut the "V" in two sides of a cardboard box as discussed in here, and spin the scope on its axis. You will see the trees and grass in front of your house move, and your reticle will spin in a circle.
Now optically center it using the quick-and-dirty mirror method, and then spin it just like before. What do you see? Nothing moving. And that's what you want. You're getting that extra performance out of your scope that you want if you can then keep it close to this center for the majority of its use. Just like parallax can "shift" what you see so can the distortion that your scope lenses have to put the light through when it is adjusted further away from optical center. It's just that we never notice it until you try the "spin trick" and see it for yourself.
If it still doesn't make sense to you, that's fine. If anyone is still interested you can find more info via Google. I use Google every day to explain things to patients; it's got plenty on optical centering.
Happy Easter, everyone.
Since this is a long range hunting web site and my scopes are either NF or S&B designed for long range shooting.. I also use a 20 MOA canted rail so I am never going to have, nor do I want the reticle in the scopes center. S&B's instruction manuel states that the scope needs to be mounted on a canted rail and should be zeroed in the low section of it's travel inorder to have the most amount of field adjustment for shooting long range. If the scope is opticaly centered when it is zeroed then one will not be able to utilize the scopes maximum amount of field adjustment.
IMHO and expereince unless one is sighting in a scope with a limited amount of adjustment, is the only time that centering a scopes reticle in its optical center is worth the time and effort. I do not center mine nor do I recomend it for a longe range scope
IMHO and expereince unless one is sighting in a scope with a limited amount of adjustment, is the only time that centering a scopes reticle in its optical center is worth the time and effort. I do not center mine nor do I recomend it for a longe range scope
Dr. Vette
Well-Known Member
And this is one of the caveats that I allude to in my previous posts. In long range you may put the optical center closer to the 400, 500 or 600 yard range depending on your anticipated total range because what you're really trying to do is put the "adjustment center" in the middle of what you will be using. It's still useful to get the scope to its optical center before going through this so that you know as you mount the scope it is actually "looking" where you want it to look. For the original poster I would say that it will help him when he moves on to the next setup to have the scope centered and not way off like he has it now. That way when he looks through it and checks everything with a laser boresighter to see if his new bases/rings/whatever are helping him he will have eliminated all the extra elevation he's put in it now as a source of error.
For a couple of the rifles that I have set up with a "ballistic reticle" you can be sure that the optical center is right at 200 yards where that first mark is supposed to be right on.
I spend time with ballistics calculators and a laser boresighter to get it all exactly where I want it before I fire the first round. Necessary? No. Anal retentive? Absolutely.
And this is one of the caveats that I allude to in my previous posts. In long range you may put the optical center closer to the 400, 500 or 600 yard range depending on your anticipated total range because what you're really trying to do is put the "adjustment center" in the middle of what you will be using. It's still useful to get the scope to its optical center before going through this so that you know as you mount the scope it is actually "looking" where you want it to look. For the original poster I would say that it will help him when he moves on to the next setup to have the scope centered and not way off like he has it now. That way when he looks through it and checks everything with a laser boresighter to see if his new bases/rings/whatever are helping him he will have eliminated all the extra elevation he's put in it now as a source of error.
For a couple of the rifles that I have set up with a "ballistic reticle" you can be sure that the optical center is right at 200 yards where that first mark is supposed to be right on.
I spend time with ballistics calculators and a laser boresighter to get it all exactly where I want it before I fire the first round. Necessary? No. Anal retentive? Absolutely.
The S&B manuel states that the scope SHOULD NOT BE ZEROED IN THE OPITICAL CENTER. The scope should in the lower portion inorder to allow the most mills or MOA for field adjustments.
Opticaly centering a long range scope is not only a waste of time it is incorrect according to S&B which is one of the best tactical scopes on the planet
Dr. Vette
Well-Known Member
I never said you were going to zero that one in the optical center. Please re-read the post.
You're going to center it near the middle of your expected adjustment range. However, if he has no concept of optical center I do not think that he will understand where it needs to go, at all.
In his case he needs to find the center so he even has a clue where to go next when he gets to the next setup.
But, that's just my opinion. You are welcome to see differently. Time for me to move on to another topic as I think we've beat this one to death.
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1- He is zeroed at the upper most in elevation and has no more come ups. All he needs to do is install a 25 MOA canted base. No need to optical zero first, he allready knows where he is.
