I would imagine that virgin brass is manafactured to minimum specs and then some. Standard FL dies do not get your case back to this. One of the reasons that small base dies are recommended for lever. pump and semi-auto rifles.. Even these don't take the case back to virgin specs. I would imagine that if dies took cases back to virgin specs case life would be horrendous from fact of having to blow the shoulder out every time the case is fired. JMO
Opinions?
- Thread starter Old Rooster
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6.5x300 WBY
Well-Known Member
CBTO...
I have mandrels for nec tension already
I have mandrels for nec tension already
You adjust CBTO by adjusting your bullet in or out.
In decreases your CBTO when you push it in and out increases it.
Your right about consistent E S with consistent CBTO.
In decreases your CBTO when you push it in and out increases it.
Your right about consistent E S with consistent CBTO.
6.5x300 WBY
Well-Known Member
Cool thx
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Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
A couple of things. Using a mandrel to set neck tension. Working your brass one more time. Pushing the uneveness to the outside of the neck. I can see that. Why not just cut the neck to even thickness to start with. The thickness of the neck should be effecting the release of the bullet by not expanding evenly. Taking more pressures to open up on one side of the neck than the other side. Creating an uneven release or as I feel it is. Once the neck thickness is corrected to be even 360dgrs, it's done. Setting neck tension can be set by bushing, no mandrel need to work the brass one more time pushing the uneven neck to the outside.
We or I do a lot of other work on the case just to start with, so why not complete it with setting neck thickness?
We or I do a lot of other work on the case just to start with, so why not complete it with setting neck thickness?
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Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Let's go to logical/technical reasoning for a minute. My reasoning.
You should know that the more you size brass, up or down, in cycles, anywhere, the LESS consistent it gets.
With every yielding, brass character changes. It's grain structure changes, hardening, and lining up to go where it's been with less force, even while spring back displacement decreases.
You also move brass with each yielding, up the case, thick towards thin. This, leading to trimming, donut building, weakening pockets.
You get high variance in static and dynamic capacities, pressure peak variance, case runout, and the hardening feeds a trend to frequent annealing. What you have with FL sizing of brass is just opposite of 'consistent'..
There are cartridges and chambers that require FL sizing eventually. Most of them actually.
But that's still YOUR choices, YOUR plan, and nothing about that means we have to or should do the same.
Then you might say that people have tried neck sizing and it didn't work out. Maybe because trying something is not the same as following an actual plan with a beginning/middle/end? I'm sure there are people who get along just fine with NS only.
I know that I can eliminate all potentials mentioned so far with a plan to do so. A plan that includes more than just a [sizing type] choice.
If you think that competitors would do whatever is best, you'd be wrong. There have been many competitive trends that come & go, roundy-roundy. There is NO evolution going on there, or with hunting designs.
You know, hundreds of millions of humans, over tens of thousands of years, were certain the Earth was the center of the universe.
Now & then a crackpot would come along claiming otherwise, and face dismissal (or persecution) from the mobs.
After all, everywhere you look in the sky, you see stuff. Therefore, Earth must be in the center of it.
Was that all the thinking put into it for all that time, from so many people? Yep. Pretty much..
So ask your BR buddies why they need to FL size, and you'll likely get -because I get stiff bolt turn if I don't. Or -because I'll shoot better if I FL size. Is that as much as they know about it? Yep. Pretty much..
Another silly mob
Couple things I learned:
I bought a Forster Bushing Bump die to replace my Redding FL standard die in use for my 28 Nosler waited months for the backorder and then quickly broke it. I used it to make ammo for a friends rifle a year or so back when the only brass he could find was once fired range brass we bought online. The ammo worked fine in my Kimber but would not chamber in his gun. I tore
the ammo apart and started over but then noticed that the die had cracked and split up the side. Brownells gave me my money back, I did not want A replacement.
I don't use them anymore but many years ago some of my best groups were neck sized only with cheap Lee collet neck dies. They worked so well I had them in 8 or 9 calibers. The groups got better after sanding the collet die mandrels a thou or so to increase neck tension. I got many firings before having to bump them back. However, If you have more than one rifle chambered in the same cartridge, great care must be taken to keep brass separated. I'm totally committed to FL and FL Bushing dies and sizing mandrels now.
Brass does not blow all the way out on just one firing. I will adjust my FL neck sizing die to just size the neck for the first 2 or 3 firings before setting my .002 bump. I've never had a bolt fail to close or even get hard to close. However I don't load near max pressure.
Short Action Customs bushings are expensive but totally worth it. They don't shave brass and they don't resize the neck all the way down to the neck shoulder junction. my run-out measurements are better with the SAC bushing than with Redding, Forster, and Hornady bushings. I typically set my final neck tension with 21st Century mandrels but the last 6-months I've have had great results using them alone without any expander ball or mandrel. I saw no signs of an increase in group size. However, this is just in one gun I compete with.
I bought a Forster Bushing Bump die to replace my Redding FL standard die in use for my 28 Nosler waited months for the backorder and then quickly broke it. I used it to make ammo for a friends rifle a year or so back when the only brass he could find was once fired range brass we bought online. The ammo worked fine in my Kimber but would not chamber in his gun. I tore
the ammo apart and started over but then noticed that the die had cracked and split up the side. Brownells gave me my money back, I did not want A replacement.
I don't use them anymore but many years ago some of my best groups were neck sized only with cheap Lee collet neck dies. They worked so well I had them in 8 or 9 calibers. The groups got better after sanding the collet die mandrels a thou or so to increase neck tension. I got many firings before having to bump them back. However, If you have more than one rifle chambered in the same cartridge, great care must be taken to keep brass separated. I'm totally committed to FL and FL Bushing dies and sizing mandrels now.
Brass does not blow all the way out on just one firing. I will adjust my FL neck sizing die to just size the neck for the first 2 or 3 firings before setting my .002 bump. I've never had a bolt fail to close or even get hard to close. However I don't load near max pressure.
Short Action Customs bushings are expensive but totally worth it. They don't shave brass and they don't resize the neck all the way down to the neck shoulder junction. my run-out measurements are better with the SAC bushing than with Redding, Forster, and Hornady bushings. I typically set my final neck tension with 21st Century mandrels but the last 6-months I've have had great results using them alone without any expander ball or mandrel. I saw no signs of an increase in group size. However, this is just in one gun I compete with.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
Now I know who got the last set of Redding Competition shell holders.
I had to back order them.Did you try Natchez?
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
I had for years NS my cases. Didn't really have any problem with them either. On my belted Mag cases it stop the case separation. Only primer pockets after that. I don't really shot that much anymore. Partly because after I have develop load that hitting what I want in one bullet weight that what I use in that rifle. It has to stand up with a single cold bore shot, and continue to group in the 1/2" area with 5 shots. I generally know what bullet weight I am going to use, before even starting the work to develop the round. I generally know which bullets I am going to use too. I do try others, and primers, powders included. Generally fall back to one manufactor maker of bullets. I also look at velocity that, the reload will achieve.
I am branching out in the two rifles, One is built, and the other is being made. The twist rate has been increased to use copper bullet. I tried copper bullets a long time ago. Did find what I was looking for. Found them to hard to push, and grouping wasn't up to my standards. I do like the Hunter bullets and how they are made. So I going to give them a run to see how they work out. I feel that they are going to be my go to bullet in these 2 rifles. All my others are to slow of twist to work. Not planning on changing the barrels out either. I would build a new rifle that has a faster twist. '
So I will give the neck sizing die a run for my money and see how that works out. I am going to get in Redding S die. I have the bushing to set my tension on the neck. So that not a problem. I also like the less working of the brass too.
Mike, I don't turn necks on hunting rifles....all my comp rifles I do.
This is the process that I use and has been the most consistent across the board for me.....I'm not saying it's the best way or the only way.
One thing I've learned over the years is....there is more than one way to skin a cat....not much is set in stone when it comes to reloading techniques.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
If you set in concrete, there not much go forward with. I have added and still changing how I reload. I read these blogs all the time. Place notes into my reloading files to look at again and who I might incorpate it into my reloading process. I am adding fire-forming action and barrels for my 2 new rifles. I will continue to do this with any new rifle that I have built. With what Mikecr has written I will go back and add some NS dies. I am not afraid to explore, or trying something different.
I have found over the years it being a lot of fun and work to build a better load, and I am not stopping now. DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE.
Orange Dust
Well-Known Member
I love forster dies, and really believe they are the best value on the market. that being said, I haven't neck sized a case in at least twenty years. Their FL bushing die is top shelf stuff.
Orange Dust
Well-Known Member
I agree completely .But, I neck turn for factory chambers just enough to clean up about 1/2 the neck. That seems "Good Enough" to accomplish the goal of evening the neck thickness. Too much clearance can hurt accuracy. IMO turning completely requires a chamber cut for turned necks, or making cases by necking down another cartridge to thicken the necks for turning. Bushing dies can cause some runout. I use them anyway but just size enough for a mandrel to open them back up a couple of thousandths, and straighten everything back up. This with a good seater can load ammo with so little runout I don't even check for it anymore. I know there are other ways, but this way is very consistent, and you get to run each case through the press one more time....
