Notes on the Centenerian

[tooth doc]

Shooters disregard the 30-06 because they hear that a .308 is so close to it as to make no difference, not because of any experience with reloading in general.

The 30-06 has 21% more case capacity of a .308 . That puts it nowhere close. When the manufacturers figures put .308 ballistics close to a 30-06, the pressure of the .308 is running higher than for the 30-06, so it is not an equal comparison. The 30-06 can approach the low end of the .30 magnums with equivalent bullet weights, which a .308 simply cannot.

The design of the 30-06 case lends itself to excellent accuracy potential. The ratio of the neck length to bore size is high for caliber, and exceeds the .30 caliber magnums. This means the bullet can be seated clear of the powder column, which is great for performance and accuracy.

When knocking 30-06 performance capability as "old wives tales" and "myths" of "special powers" , please save the yarn and try get to the numbers. Stick to quoting verifiable numbers.

There is nothing new from cartridges ballistically . A lot of cartridges duplicate each other's ballistics with specific bullet weights. The real innovations have been in bullet manufacture and platform evolution, giving us the long range capability that we have today.

The 30-06 should not be compared to any Creedmoor. Creedmoor calibers were designed with a shorter powder column to reduce recoil for target shooters - specifically to keep the scope on target after the shot. To compensate for the reduced powder capacity, the cartridge was mated to high BC bullets to reduce drop at long distance. This does not equate to terminal performance at long distance.

Taking the centenarian, loading it with the right powder, and mating it to suitable high BC bullets will give very interesting results.

The 30-06 cartridge is just under-rated, it is not inferior.

Well stated! And true!

 

[greenejc]

Yes, I understand that. I have a military backgroieund, specifically infantry. I retired after 20 years of going to places for Uncle Sam and killing people that he said I should. I have worked with Army, Special Forces and some Delta and Marine Recon snipers. My youngest brother was a SF trained sniper. I started shooting in West Texas at the age of 12, and have continued until now. I still shoot prarie dogs at distances out to 500 yards with a 25-06 or a 6mm Remington. I regularly shoot steel 18 inch targets out to 600 yards, which is as far as the range I shoot on will allow. (They're talking about expanding to 1,000 yards) I shoot at this range with a Remington 700 heavy barrel .308, both Remington 300 winmags, both 30-06's and my 35 Whelen. I use Shepherd scopes on most of these rifles, and my buddy George works as a spotter for me in high wind conditions. I wouldn't take a shot past maybe 700 yards at game with any of these rifles, simply because of the possibility of wounding instead of killing my target. Have I taken shots longer that that? Yes, but not at big game.
As to a definition of long range, its going to be different for every hunter. I would say it is the farthest distance that an individual hunter and rifle combination is capable of hitting and killing his game animal cleanly. I have a friend in Kansas (retired Army) who wouldn't shoot past 150 yards at deer with his 30-06, and never took a running shot until he borrowed my 1903A3 and killed a doe across a wheatfield at a measured 305 yards with a 165 grain Hornaday bullet going about 2850fps at the muzzle. It was a perfect heart/lung shot and dropped the deer on the spot. The next year, he borrowed my Ruger M77MKII with Shepherd P2 scope in 30-06 and killed a deer at 450 yards on Fort Riley. the bullet used was a Sierra Gameking 180 grain at a chronographed 2680fps. The exit wound was about the size of a 50 cent piece. That's longrange for Gene. Now, the longest shot with the .308/7.62X51 was done in Faluja at 1,380 yards, and the sniper who made the shot was just trying to mess up the Iraqi sniper's aim. He didn't expect to hit, due to the limitations of the round he was using. As a highly experienced sniper, he considered it a very lucky shot. The snipers who make these shots beyond 1200 meters are extremely experienced, highly trained, and have ballistic calculators and range finders that are far more accurate and powerful than what is available on the civilian market, and they still have to take more than one shot to hit. And wounding at 1500 yards with anything less than a .338 caliber bullet (and a heavy one, at that) is a great way to lose game. Penetration suffers, the wound channel is only the size of the caliber, and the hit has to hit something vital to get a kill that isn't delayed by minutes to hours.
As to me mentioning the 45-70, and its various similar cartridges, up until Carlos Hathcock, the longest recorded shot in combat was made by Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls, Texas. By the way, I've been to Adobe Walls three times, just to stop at Billy's grave and look at the terrain where he made that shot. It was made with a 50-90 Sharps, probably loaded with a 500 grain bullet and about 110 grains of black powder, and it was 1,580 yards. He killed one of Quana Parker's sub-chiefs. The shot was measured by the Army Corps of Engineers. Billy Dixon was one of about 8 civilians ever awarded the Medal of Honor, and it was for his accurate fire at the Buffalo Wallow fight, later that year. I know the shot was made and I know it was made at that distance, and I know it killed the sub-chief because I knew Deayne Parker, who was Quana's grandson. Just because a rifle will reach 1500 yards doesn't mean you should try to kill game at that distance with it. You have to take into account the limitations of the round, terrain, conditions and your own skill. I'm good for about 800 yards, right now, but my .300 winmag is only good as far as the bullet will perform consistently, which is about 450 yards on Elk. Sorry.

I have to make a correction here. Billy Dixon's shot was measured by the Corps of Engineers as 1,538 yards. Sorry about that.

 

[greenejc]

His name is MontanaMarine... Do a search. Pretty sure his rifle is nothing special like that. As for loadings, everyone keeps touring the .30-06 pressures as being outdated...What makes the .308 Win any different? It was created in the 1950's... I'm sure we all run over SAAMI spec pressures. Why? Because it can handle it with no issues. I said he experimented in the transonic range, not supersonic at those distances.

The .308 is rated about 2,000 CUP higher than the 30-06, actually, and around 2000 to 3000 psi higher. That gives it its edge.

 

[73driver]

The .308 is rated about 2,000 CUP higher than the 30-06, actually, and around 2000 to 3000 psi higher. That gives it its edge.

LOL, so that is why the 06 launches 180's 150 fps faster?

 

[nicholasjohn]

LOL, so that is why the 06 launches 180's 150 fps faster?

It's basic physics, really. Greater case capacity will deliver more velocity. Period. So will loading to higher pressures. The main reason the .308 came on the scene with the capability to deliver most of the performance of the 30-06 was because they had developed new powders since the '06 was designed, and better steel for barrels that could handle more pressure. We have still more newer powders today, many years after the .308 was introduced, and the performance of BOTH cartridges benefits from these. When loaded to normal pressures for each cartridge, the 30-06 can reach the lower end of .300 magnum performance. So can the .308 reach the lower end of 30-06 performance. These are cartridges of three different performance categories, and these three categories have some overlap. The same thing can be seen when comparing the .270 Win. with other .270 cartridges of larger case capacity, or the 7 X 57 with the .280 and 7mm magnums. The levels of performance are all stacked in order of cartridge case capacity. There is no magic here.

 

[greenejc]

It's basic physics, really. Greater case capacity will deliver more velocity. Period. So will loading to higher pressures. The main reason the .308 came on the scene with the capability to deliver most of the performance of the 30-06 was because they had developed new powders since the '06 was designed, and better steel for barrels that could handle more pressure. We have still more newer powders today, many years after the .308 was introduced, and the performance of BOTH cartridges benefits from these. When loaded to normal pressures for each cartridge, the 30-06 can reach the lower end of .300 magnum performance. So can the .308 reach the lower end of 30-06 performance. These are cartridges of three different performance categories, and these three categories have some overlap. The same thing can be seen when comparing the .270 Win. with other .270 cartridges of larger case capacity, or the 7 X 57 with the .280 and 7mm magnums. The levels of performance are all stacked in order of cartridge case capacity. There is no magic here.

Part of this is how rapidly the powder reaches its pressure peak, and how long it holds that peak. Some of the newer powders, such as RL26, CFE 223 and Superperformance have longer peak pressure times. The results from these powders can be anywhere from 60 to 120fps higher velocities with the same bullet, and increased velocity/effeciency with heavier bullets.

 

[HobieH3]

The .308 is rated about 2,000 CUP higher than the 30-06, actually, and around 2000 to 3000 psi higher. That gives it its edge.

Why? Is there something about the case design? Or is it because somebody might be using great-granpappy's '03 Springfield 30-06?

 

[Lycanit]

I thought the 308 was adopted into the military after Civilian introduction. Most importantly because of it's short action and it was reduced in pressure to accommodate a belt fed weapon system. Given the law of diminishing returns, a sizeable increase in projectile acceleration could still be realized with appropriate powder, throat, and barrel selection. Then again I may have not remembered correctly.

 

[Lycanit]

I assumed everyone is still talking about the 30/06 having a larger deflagration containment vessel.

 

[greenejc]

The

I thought the 308 was adopted into the military after Civilian introduction. Most importantly because of it's short action and it was reduced in pressure to accommodate a belt fed weapon system. Given the law of diminishing returns, a sizeable increase in projectile acceleration could still be realized with appropriate powder, throat, and barrel selection. Then again I may have not remembered correctly.

30-06 has a lower SAAMI MAP because its an older round. It will handle greater pressures with careful handloading. The .308 Win was brought out at the original MAP for the experimental T65 cartridge that the army was experimenting with, but when the 7.62 x 51 was adopted, the military went with a lower pressure round. I think it may have been because of the m1 conversions but I'm not sure.

 

[nicholasjohn]

Part of this is how rapidly the powder reaches its pressure peak, and how long it holds that peak. Some of the newer powders, such as RL26, CFE 223 and Superperformance have longer peak pressure times. The results from these powders can be anywhere from 60 to 120fps higher velocities with the same bullet, and increased velocity/effeciency with heavier bullets.

They used to speak of getting better velocity when there is "more time under the pressure curve." I haven't heard much about that concept in the last few years. I think I first heard that expression when Federal was loading a line of ammunition called High Energy, which is no longer available. I was using their 30-06 load, with the 180-grain Nosler Partition. It got EXACTLY the velocity they advertised, which was 2880 fps. It also shot three shot groups with all the holes touching, and I killed a bunch of animals with that load. Wish I had bought a case of it. I have no idea what the powder was, or whether or not there was a fancy loading technique involved - they just shot great and killed well.

More recently, I've used the Hornady Superformance ammo in the same rifle. I haven't chronographed it to check velocity, but they do fly the trajectory that Hornady says they do. I have to think that the velocity is about as advertised, which is faster than standard. They also kill extremely well, with the 165-grain GMX bullet. I've shot several animals with this bullet, and it knocks them down handily, without a lot of blood-shot meat. Accuracy, though, was a bit erratic - a couple of boxes shot half-inch groups; a couple shot PATTERNS. ( All had the same lot number on the box flap.) Hornady never answered my email when I asked about it, which surprised me a bit.

I'm using a different rifle this season ( it's a .280 ) and I plan to load one of the monolithic bullets. I may try Hodgdon's Superformance powder, and see if I get the higher velocities, or I may just stick with one of their conventional powders ( 4350 or 4831.) I haven't heard whether or not the Superformance is a temperature-sensitive powder. That will be the deciding factor for me. Has anybody got anything to say about that ?

 

[greenejc]

Their website doesn't say, but I think its supposed to be pretty temperature stable. You could email them and find out. Load data for Superformance is on the website. It includes the 280 cartridge.

 

[nicholasjohn]

Their website doesn't say, but I think its supposed to be pretty temperature stable. You could email them and find out. Load data for Superformance is on the website. It includes the 280 cartridge.

Thanks - I'll give that a shot. I'm just getting my loading room set up now, after a fifteen year hiatus from handloading. I've been shooting factory loads for all these years, but since I retired, I now have the time to do my own loading like I did years ago. I've been looking forward to this for quite a while ……….

 

[Don A Parsons]

I've run the 308 and 30/06 for years,,, more so on the hunting grounds,,, both of them worked good with in their range,,, a very small edge I'd give to the Ought-6...

Of course the magnum category filled in a gap for a few years before I returned to both of those cartrages,,, I jumped into the shooting sports about 6 years ago,,, I was signing up for 1 caliber,,, 1 cartrage,,, 1 kind of bullet,,, 1 powder charge,,, so I handy capped my Ought-6 to get the same ballistic performance as my 308... That way all my Mills and MOA's matched pretty close across the board form 100 to 900 meters...

2630 ft-per seconds was my mark since all 3 of my rifles like this charge... Lucky indeed to find that in the mix...

Yes the 30 can fill those needs on the hunting grounds as well as in competion,,, of course other calibers and cartridges can do this as well...

I'm taking on my next adventure in the 6.5 community very soon,,, same hunting grounds but I'll close the gap a bit with the smaller boolitz... Ha...

And yes all the remaining rifles will see matching barrels to the mix as time passes by...

Hopefully 2 rifles of the same caliber...

I'll miss my 30/06 days I'm sure,,, but thats part of life,,, change happens with age,,, more shooting sports with parts of hunting critters along the way...

The Ought-6 is part of the adventures that got me to where I'm at today,,, hard to believe that the trail head for me started 40+ years ago a 30/06 was my first new rifle back then...

A copy cat Midland to replicate a Parker Hail,,, many rifles showed up along the way,,, my last unit in 06 is a Remmy LR that will get sold off or re-barrel in the years ahead...

Old school tool for changes into a new world I guess. LOL