Nosler long range accbond and my experience.

[cohunter14]

cohunter14,

What were you trying to get cleared up, or looking for information on?

Thanks for coming back to the thread HTD!

Per a few previous posts, I am mainly curious what it was that made you feel the bullet didn't perform as well as you would have hoped. The reason I ask is because based on the picture you shared, it looks like the bullet mushroomed really well. It also sounds like it did that very early after impact and penetrated well. I understand the deer didn't die right away, with many different possibilities as a reason. But do you feel it was because of something the bullet did or didn't do? Is there a bullet you feel would have been better suited for the shot? If I missed something in your initial explanation, please let me know as well. Outside of the deer not dropping dead in it's tracks, it sounds like the bullet did really well, which is the reason for the questions.

 

[HuntFarther]

Thanks for coming back to the thread HTD!

Per a few previous posts, I am mainly curious what it was that made you feel the bullet didn't perform as well as you would have hoped. The reason I ask is because based on the picture you shared, it looks like the bullet mushroomed really well. It also sounds like it did that very early after impact and penetrated well. I understand the deer didn't die right away, with many different possibilities as a reason. But do you feel it was because of something the bullet did or didn't do? Is there a bullet you feel would have been better suited for the shot? If I missed something in your initial explanation, please let me know as well. Outside of the deer not dropping dead in it's tracks, it sounds like the bullet did really well, which is the reason for the questions.

The biggest thing that I didn't like was that they seemed to hit so hard and even though the penetration was there. There was not any damage caused from the mushroom going through. The would channel was so clean that if there was no grass in a few small spots the whole hind could have just been ground or cut to steaks. There was zero blood shot through the whole hind quarter where I found the bullet I have. So when I hear what everyone is saying about tough animals and so on. I just keep thinking even with the great penetration, what if the initial expansion does not work. I have read and seen a time I was not happy with the bergers. But what I know of a berger is, we have shot a lot of animals with them and when they open you have results. The results of these hard hits on the hide are not cutting it in my opinion. But if you take a hard hit of a berger that is opening inside seems to save a guys butt a little better. I have also not ever shot anything with a berger and it souped the vitals not have something come out of the animals nose and mouth. I never had anything come out of this buck. Does that say anything about the effectiveness of the bullet? Most certainly not. I hope this helps with some of your questions.

 

[elkaholic]

Pictures of wound channels and internal damage are the only way to tell whether the bullet did its job or not! I've seen animals run some distance with vitals completely blown apart and others drop with far les damage, but lets get back to the timing thing again. This is something that isn't mentioned often enough and has a lot to do with killing. Also, expansion alone does not cause as mush lethal damage as expansion plus shrapnel. When a bullet sheds some of its weight, all those little sharp things flying around in the boiler room cause damage (bleeding) far outside the wound channel and vessels that might be completely missed by 1/2-3/4" mushroom are severed. Now back to the LRAB: I think Nosler was trying to make a good long range bullet that would perform well close up (good for them)! I believe, and this is my opinion, what they did was put too much emphasis on making the thing expand and lost too much on the bottom end. These things will expand below 1300', and not just a little! This is great if everyone was shooting 1700 yards, but how realistic is that? The ones that I tested pancaked immediately, and I was not shooting them at mag velocities. At the range where I feel the LRAB will be most effective, you don't need bonding, and it really isn't even desirable. The bonding no doubt helps them a little close up, but again, they over did the expansion design so much that they still are far too soon pancaked. I may be wrong, but when more results come in, I believe that there will be problems when penetration through a lot of tissue is needed at high velocities. My 208 SXR's are similar, in many ways to the LRAB, although they have a much higher b.c., They work great at long and extreme ranges, but I would never recommend them for a shoulder shot on an elk close up. This isn't meant to say that they won't have some good applications, but I think they are far from what they could have been. Somewhere between the old AB's and the new would have served a lot more shooters well IMO......Rich

 

[elkaholic]

The biggest thing that I didn't like was that they seemed to hit so hard and even though the penetration was there. There was not any damage caused from the mushroom going through. The would channel was so clean that if there was no grass in a few small spots the whole hind could have just been ground or cut to steaks. There was zero blood shot through the whole hind quarter where I found the bullet I have. So when I hear what everyone is saying about tough animals and so on. I just keep thinking even with the great penetration, what if the initial expansion does not work. I have read and seen a time I was not happy with the bergers. But what I know of a berger is, we have shot a lot of animals with them and when they open you have results. The results of these hard hits on the hide are not cutting it in my opinion. But if you take a hard hit of a berger that is opening inside seems to save a guys butt a little better. I have also not ever shot anything with a berger and it souped the vitals not have something come out of the animals nose and mouth. I never had anything come out of this buck. Does that say anything about the effectiveness of the bullet? Most certainly not. I hope this helps with some of your questions.

I just read this after my post above. I think it explains some of what Rhian and I were getting to......Rich

 

[WildRose]

The biggest thing that I didn't like was that they seemed to hit so hard and even though the penetration was there. There was not any damage caused from the mushroom going through. The would channel was so clean that if there was no grass in a few small spots the whole hind could have just been ground or cut to steaks. There was zero blood shot through the whole hind quarter where I found the bullet I have. So when I hear what everyone is saying about tough animals and so on. I just keep thinking even with the great penetration, what if the initial expansion does not work. I have read and seen a time I was not happy with the bergers. But what I know of a berger is, we have shot a lot of animals with them and when they open you have results. The results of these hard hits on the hide are not cutting it in my opinion. But if you take a hard hit of a berger that is opening inside seems to save a guys butt a little better. I have also not ever shot anything with a berger and it souped the vitals not have something come out of the animals nose and mouth. I never had anything come out of this buck. Does that say anything about the effectiveness of the bullet? Most certainly not. I hope this helps with some of your questions.

As I read your description earlier that bullet found in the HQ had already run a long way through the body before getting there. That means it expended it's greatest energy long before it got there and as such one would not expect to see much bloodshot or tissue disruption.

Did I read that wrong?

 

[HuntFarther]

Wild rose,

The bullet did travel a very long ways. You are correct, not sure if you could expect blood shot or not. Did drop a lot of energy to get there. But was that good to have a mushroom bullet travel so far or not. I am not sure. We take the final down and out kill shot. Entered left side of the neck blew hard. That bullet went straight through and had only a exit the size of the mushroom I recovered? what would this have done if was quartering away and hit gut going in? Can you say, you would be fine. I would hope so. If it wasn't do you have enough confidence you will get him and the he would be sick enough to slow up if was not good? That I am not sure about.

 

[WildRose]

Wild rose,

The bullet did travel a very long ways. You are correct, not sure if you could expect blood shot or not. Did drop a lot of energy to get there. But was that good to have a mushroom bullet travel so far or not. I am not sure. We take the final down and out kill shot. Entered left side of the neck blew hard. That bullet went straight through and had only a exit the size of the mushroom I recovered? what would this have done if was quartering away and hit gut going in? Can you say, you would be fine. I would hope so. If it wasn't do you have enough confidence you will get him and the he would be sick enough to slow up if was not good? That I am not sure about.

The ideal is to have the bullet do just that, mushroom out AND get full penetration.

I looked again at the pictures and the video. It looks to me like the frontal shoulder to the HQ shot may have not struck any bone at all along it's path, is that correct?

It still looks to me like you got great performance with the bullets but managed to get the first two "on target" while still missing any of the vital structures necessary to ensure that DRT kill we desire. That's just bad luck, not a bullet problem from the way I see it.

Personally The kind of expansion you got on the one you recovered is exactly what I like to see.

It just goes back to what several of us said throughout this thread.

Break the shoulders.

Punch the spine.

Take out the heart.

Take out the blood vessels at the top of the heart and punch the lungs.

Take out the Aorta or Vena Cava.

Punch the lungs.

Punch the liver.

Take out the Aorta or Vena Cava.

Those are all fatal first round wounds, but even the latter three are going to result in the animal often running a good long ways before finally going down.

I've seen Antelope run a quarter or half mile acting totally unhurt with those types of wound and then just collapse and seen hogs hit much better with total disruption of everything in their chest run just as far.

Sometimes it just happens.

 

[HuntFarther]

Wild Rose glad to see it helped make your mind up to shoot them. Best of wishes on your hunt.

 

[Kennibear]

I think WildRose's list of stop shots is germane to this thread. It is the accepted norm of successful kill shots. But I believe most of us are tied to the idea that game should always drop dead where shot. Pow and down. Maybe we need a reality check.

Case from my past: 70 yds, 15lb 30/06, 4-12 scope, stump for a perfect shooting bench, deer with head hidden by tree but body fully exposed. Can't miss. I make out sufficient antlers to make him legal and line up the text book shot through the heart. At the shot the buck launched like a funny car down the quarter mile. First thought was, "Stupid pollack, missed the easiest shot of your life.; Stupid, stupid, stupid!" Crossed the ravine to track the buck and found blood sprayed at 10' intervals along his tracks. 70 yards further I found the buck keeled over in the creek.

The bullet went through and punched a 2" hole on the off side. Heart was gone. But the buck bolted 70 yards before expiring. Everything, looking back 30 years, went perfectly. But why do we expect a dead drop after the shot? Maybe we should be looking for recovering the deer/ elk after a reasonably short burst after the shot as a good shot, a good ending. Maybe we wrongly expect a Hollywood Ending.

Back to WildRose's list. Shots inside the parameters of this list deliver consistent results. I reread the original posts and I believe the 3' of penetration the bullets achieved after that long of shot coupled with the excellent penetration (IMHO) and expansion are quite good results. I would be happy for those results any hunt I have ever taken. The critter did not "drop in his tracks". But, happily, the game was recovered and in the end the shot and therefore hunt was a success.

I ask, isn't that a good enough result?

Not intended to disparage any other opinion expressed or implied.

 

[HuntFarther]

I never thought this thread would go from saying what happened, to making a comment that I would not have wanted to use this bullet on a bull elk. Would cause this thread to go this far. I simply wanted it to be stated if you use this bullet on a once in a life time hunt just make sure you are prepped cause I believed things could go wrong Easier with less error. That to me takes the fun out of the hunt. Although I might not shoot the biggest animals I am hoping for, it is when you hunt so hard to pull the trigger you want high confidence things are going to go pretty smooth. I don't care if the bullet doesn't have a very high bc, but you have confidence in it. You are already more successful, your mind is just find the animal be in range and it is over.

 

[elkaholic]

I never thought this thread would go from saying what happened, to making a comment that I would not have wanted to use this bullet on a bull elk. Would cause this thread to go this far. I simply wanted it to be stated if you use this bullet on a once in a life time hunt just make sure you are prepped cause I believed things could go wrong Easier with less error. That to me takes the fun out of the hunt. Although I might not shoot the biggest animals I am hoping for, it is when you hunt so hard to pull the trigger you want high confidence things are going to go pretty smooth. I don't care if the bullet doesn't have a very high bc, but you have confidence in it. You are already more successful, your mind is just find the animal be in range and it is over.

Maybe I need to read through the entire thread again, but I did not see where anyone said that they would not shoot a bull elk with one?.....Rich

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Nosler long range accubond and my experience.

I am just glad through this to help someone make a decision to use them or to stick with their load. I hate the comments about you break the spinal column, or both front legs. That is great but we never have perfect condition's all the time to guarantee a perfect hit where the crosshairs lay, with a good trigger brake to boot. So with me having something to cover your butt when stuff is not the best is worth a lot. I have stated repeatedly that this bullet needs tested further to prove it. I am not talking coyotes and little whitetails. I am talking moose, caribou, and elk size animals. I would have never wanted to shot a bull elk with this bullet if it preformed like this that day. I have confidence that the recovery may not have happened, or if there was thick cover. I showed all and the proof is there, may just have been the one in a million that had the desire to live.

The OP (huntthedistance) made the comment "I would not have wanted to use this bullet on a bull elk".

 

[elkaholic]

Re: Nosler long range accubond and my experience.

The OP (huntthedistance) made the comment "I would not have wanted to use this bullet on a bull elk".

Ok, thanks! I guess I missed that. I didn't want anyone to think that when I stated that "at this point, I would be reluctant to shoot one in the shoulder up close", that it meant I wouldn't shoot one under any circumstance. There are lots of bullets that I would say the same thing about, and others where I would say to intentionally go for the shoulder. That is why, as you have stated in the past, we need to alllow people to post their findings, good or bad, agree or disagree.......Rich

 

[MontanaRifleman]

HTD, Congrats on a very nice buck! I wouldn't get upset with some of the responses. I think most are just analyzing and giving their opinions which is to be expected in a thread like this. BTW, I think your load development and drop confirmation was just fine.

So here's a little analyzing myself... I've used a handful of different types of bullets for taking game and the bullet I used most was the 160 Nos Partition from a 7 RM. It always left a nickle to quarter size exit hole. The first bullet was always enough to do the job although in a few cases I used more than one. Bottom line, the wound channels were not huge but maybe a little bigger than what you are describing. I also always shoot for the lungs if that shot is available and it has been effective 100% of the time on maybe about 40 animals. (not trying to get into a debate with the high shoulder shooters, just sharing my experiences) Most dropped where they were or within a few feet and none, but one, wandered very far. The one that did travel a little was an antelope buck shot with a 115 CT bullet from a 25-06. The entrance hole (in the crease) under the hide was about 1" and the exit hole (a few inches behind the off shoulder) was about 1 1/2" with a substantial wound channel. The buck took off in a sprint like it wasn't hit and started a large arc that covered over 100 yds before piling up near where it was shot. when turning the buck over to see the exit hole there a large amount of blood and some lung tissue on the ground. I was very surprised to see it run so far with a wound like that, which was better than the average partition wound channel. I was very happy with the bullet's performance although the goat did not drop right away. I'm guessing you ran into a tough buck that did not want to die.

It seems to me that although Bergers and ABLR's are both frangible bullets, they are frangible in different ways. The Bergers will penetrate a couple of inches before expanding and when/if they exit they usually leave a large hole. Whereas the ABLR's expand immediately with little destructive penetration.

Most of us have been conditioned to believe that a mushroomed bullet is the ideal performance in a hunting bullet. In most cases it does a very good job but rounded mushroomed bullets tend to leave more temporary wound channel vs permanent wound channel because of their rounded frontal. If you shoot an animal with say a 44 cal hardcast flat nose bullet at even low velocities, it will be devastating and will have very little if any deformation or expansion. Flat frontals are much better at creating permanent wound channel than rounded mushroomed bullets. On the other side of the spectrum, frangible bullets that penetrate and "explode" causing massive collateral damage from shrapnel pieces are also very effective when used within their limitations.

Apparently, the ABLR's seem to be expanding "too" quickly and leaving a small permanent wound channel. At least in this case. This probably is due to the combination of the tip and the thinly tapered nose jacket that allows for low velocity expansion.

So far, my view of the ABLR's is that they make a good bullet for extending the max effective ranges of lower velocity cartridges, like the 308 or 7-08 because of their low expansion velocity. Form what I have been reading, I don't think I would use them in higher velocity cartridges. That said, IMO, from what I have seen and read here, I think the 215 Hybrid Target would be the better choice in even the 308 with it's higher BC and probably higher MV. The 175 might be a good choice for the 7-08 hunter looking to extend his effective range because it has about the same BC as the Berger 180 with a lower expanding velocity.