Nodes, Antinodes and Standing waves?

[ColoYooper]

Go with whatever works for you...but, both my competition rifles wear Harris Bipods, with taller Harris Bipod backups.

 

[gohring3006]

Go with whatever works for you...but, both my competition rifles wear Harris Bipods, with taller Harris Bipod backups.

That's all I ever used as well. The Atlas just looked slicker than snot when I seen Aaron Davidson use it in one of his tech videos. The price has me wanting to make my Harris Bipods work...

 

[Rich Coyle]

Lots of folks here suggest you get straight behind the rifle rather than angling toward the rifle.

 

[gohring3006]

Lots of folks here suggest you get straight behind the rifle rather than angling toward the rifle.

I'm definitely going to use the revised prone position, which is straight behind the rifle instead of the angled position taught years ago..

 

[Barrelnut]

I think ColoYooper is spot on with his assessment of the effects. I sometimes have issues prone when I have to have my chest on the ground. This causes me to have to bend my neck a lot which causes tension. Then I end up putting too much weight on the butt with my cheek cause of my big fat head, and guess what I'm not shooting the same POI as from the bench.

I am a big guy and I shoot better prone with my chest up off the ground some. I don't like the rifle as absolutely close to the ground as possible. I tend to set the bipod higher so my head is up off the ground some and more to the angle as it might be from a bench or standing.

Here's a Youtube guy talking about it. I shoot prone much like this, I just use a taller rear bag. I don't shoot free recoil as he suggest, but do much of the other stuff he talks about.

[ame]https://youtu.be/k3q_pfiF4X8[/ame]

 

[MudRunner2005]

Nodes, Antinodes and Standing waves are unchanged...so there is no need to further wear out your barrel in developing a new load. However, your cheek pressure, shoulder pressure, body alignment, grip, eye relief, trigger engagement, and bipod loading, may have all changed causing the rifle to recoil differently, causing a POI shift. In competing in Tactical Rifle competitions where you are guaranteed to be shooting in every possible, awkward position imaginable by the sadistic match director, I've become more aware than I previously was, to the above effects. I've found with attention to consistency to pressure in the above listed areas, that I can minimize the POI shift in different positions. ps if I were to pick two from above, I'd say cheek pressure and bipod loading.

The bullet has long left the barrel before the rifle begins to recoil...Which is before the shooter even feels any recoil.

 

[gohring3006]

I think ColoYooper is spot on with his assessment of the effects. I sometimes have issues prone when I have to have my chest on the ground. This causes me to have to bend my neck a lot which causes tension. Then I end up putting too much weight on the butt with my cheek cause of my big fat head, and guess what I'm not shooting the same POI as from the bench.

I am a big guy and I shoot better prone with my chest up off the ground some. I don't like the rifle as absolutely close to the ground as possible. I tend to set the bipod higher so my head is up off the ground some and more to the angle as it might be from a bench or standing.

Here's a Youtube guy talking about it. I shoot prone much like this, I just use a taller rear bag. I don't shoot free recoil as he suggest, but do much of the other stuff he talks about.

https://youtu.be/k3q_pfiF4X8

I watch a lot of those guys' videos. I seen him take a .308 to a mile, his wife is quite the spotter... I just wish she would shoot some... They put out some great shooting vids...

I'm going to have to refine my technique, but I think some of the heavier recoiling rifles I have, I might do better higher up, like in the video as well.. I was told from a few guys, that eye relief is different prone, and if you don't watch you will get hit with the scope on heavy recoilers...

 

[gohring3006]

The bullet has long left the barrel before the rifle begins to recoil...Which is before the shooter even feels any recoil.

Im not so sure Mudd.

I have experimented with different grips and free recoil from the bench, and experienced POI shifts. I have a 7 mag that doesn't liked to be held firmly. It opens up, and shoots horrible if I grip it firm and not let it free recoil. But if keep my thumb off the back of the grip and lay it to the side, (which I do with all my rifles now). And let it free recoil with the bipod loaded it will stack three shots in one whole... Then I have a 30-06 that doesn't really care how I hold it, it just shoots... It's very forgiving.


That's the reason for the thread title. The way we grip the rifle, the recoil, cheek weld, bipod load, lock time, all have influence on nodes,antinodes and standing waves. And all this happens while the bullet is traveling down the barrel, and at the time it exits.
So I was wondering if anyone experienced shooting prone changed these dynamic actions enough to warrant a new load work up...

 

[Rich Coyle]

gohring3006,

I did a test with an accurate to me .223 Savage. I fired two groups at 200 yards from the bench. Each group consisted of ten shots. When I barely held the rifle the group measured .870". When I held it more like I was shouldering it, but still on the bags, the group opened to 2.0".

In the future I will give your thumb along the side of the stock a try.

 

[gohring3006]

gohring3006,

I did a test with an accurate to me .223 Savage. I fired two groups at 200 yards from the bench. Each group consisted of ten shots. When I barely held the rifle the group measured .870". When I held it more like I was shouldering it, but still on the bags, the group opened to 2.0".

In the future I will give your thumb along the side of the stock a try.

Good luck Wildcater!!! Looking forward to what you find out...

Your experience with the grip is basically what I have found to be the case as well..

 

[MudRunner2005]

Im not so sure Mudd.

I have experimented with different grips and free recoil from the bench, and experienced POI shifts. I have a 7 mag that doesn't liked to be held firmly. It opens up and shoot horrible if I grip it firm and not let it free recoil. But if keep my thumb off the back of the grip and lay it to the side, (which I do with all my rifles now). And let it free recoil with the bipod loaded it will stack three shots in one whole... Then I have a 30-06 that doesn't really care how I hold it, it just shoots... It's very forgiving.


That's the reason for the thread title. The way we grip the rifle, the recoil, cheek weld, bipod load, lock time, all have influence on nodes,antinodes and standing waves. And all this happens while the bullet is traveling down the barrel, and at the time it exits.
So I was wondering if anyone experienced shooting prone changed these dynamic actions enough to warrant a new load work up...

My consistent cheek-weld is something that I perfected a LONG time before I was into precision rifle shooting. I learned it as a kid shooting archery. One of the biggest things in archery is learning consistent cheek-weld on your string, or your shot will be off. Grip-torquing is also something that is important to learn not to do, by not actually gripping the grip, but letting it rest in the cradle of your hand between your palm and pad. AMO speed on most bows is less than 300 fps, so at that slow of speed, your grip can most certainly affect the outcome as the arrow is being shot.

The grip affect is from the split-second before the trigger get's squeezed and lights off the primer. In that millisecond, before your average shooter even realizes it, it can cause a shift, and you can affect POI by shifting or squeezing in a wrong direction by either involuntary subconscious movement, or target panic. Which makes you believe that you "pushed" the rifle as it was shooting, affecting the actual outcome, when in reality, you had affected it before the powder has even lit, and you didnt even realize it. Trigger-slap is one of the biggest factors for this. A lot of people who were never taught proper shooting technique tend to slap the trigger with their index finger to fire the weapon, thinking it somehow will make them more accurate, when it reality it does the complete opposite. Same as people who really grip their rifle thinking they're keeping it from moving. This reason is why I use a semi-free-recoiling method of shooting. I lay my whole hand on the grip, but I do not squeeze the grip itslef. I hold it firmly and evenly, then lineup and let the buttstock rest firmly, but without flexing my chest muscles to allow a padded divot for the buttstock to "fall" into.

I also don't shoot off a pod unless I'm coyote hunting or sniping steel. At the range, I use sandbags, and only sandbags. They're heavier, steadier, firmer, and act like a run-rail for the rifle to recoil on, allowing it to slide forwards and backwards. My shooting technique is my own personal mix of sniper techniques and benchrest shooter techniques. It works for me. You need to find your "zen" spot for shooting ALL your rifles. I shoot everything from my 10/22 up to my .300 Ackley and STW's the same way. I treat them all as if they're equally chambered. And for me, my technique is perfected and allows me to judge a weapon or load's abilities without fear of human inflection. And I do flub shots occasionally. But when I do flub a shot, that neuron makes a synapse and I know it in that millisecond before I even squeeze the trigger, but at that point my body is more committed than my brain, so it's fixing to get sent downrange, whether I want it to or not. It happens...Sometimes.

 

[gohring3006]

My consistent cheek-weld is something that I perfected a LONG time before I was into precision rifle shooting. I learned it as a kid shooting archery. One of the biggest things in archery is learning consistent cheek-weld on your string, or your shot will be off.

The grip affect is from the split-second before the trigger get's squeezed and lights off the primer. In that millisecond, before your average shooter even realizes it, it can cause a shift, and you can affect POI by shifting or squeezing in a wrong direction by either involuntary subconscious movement, or target panic. Which makes you believe that you "pushed" the rifle as it was shooting, affecting the actual outcome, when in reality, you had affected it before the powder has even lit, and you didnt even realize it. This reason is why I use a semi-free-recoiling method of shooting. I lay my whole hand on the grip, but I do not squeeze the grip itslef. I hold it firmly and evenly, then lineup and let the buttstock rest firmly, but without flexing my chest muscles to allow a padded divot for the buttstock to "fall" into.

I also don't shoot off a pod unless I'm coyote hunting or sniping steel. At the range, I use sandbags, and only sandbags. They're heavier, steadier, firmer, and act like a run-rail for the rifle to recoil on, allowing it to slide forwards and backwards. My shooting technique is my own personal mix of sniper techniques and benchrest shooter techniques. It works for me. You need to find your "zen" spot for shooting ALL your rifles. I shoot everything from my 10/22 up to my .300 Ackley and STW's the same way. I treat them all as if they're equally chambered. And for me, my technique is perfected and allows me to judge a weapon or load's abilities without fear of human inflection. And I do flub shots occasionally. But when I do flub a shot, that neuron makes a synapse and I know it in that millisecond before I even squeeze the trigger, but at that point my body is more committed than my brain, so it's fixing to get sent downrange, whether I want it to or not. It happens...Sometimes.

Well said Mudd!! Everyone has their own way of achieving the same objective... I too was a avid Archer before I was a rifle shooter, even competing and winning some 3D tournaments. I tended to explore every major influence on my shooting with thorough research. I do the same with my rifle shooting, that's the reason I always have questions... I don't sleep well, tend to talk to myself, and ask myself questions, and my brain is constantly asking for technical data and won't shut down...I love this stuff!!!lightbulbgun)


If you can imagine the rifle as a big tuning fork, and how holding it in different areas will affect the harmonics. It becomes clear how gripping and squeezing the rifle with our bodies can influence the Nodes, Antinodes and Standing waves, one guys actually compares it to a guitar string and the frets, which is a good comparison of vibratory influence...

Ps. They claim Einstein tended to talk to him self and was a insomniac...

 

[MudRunner2005]

Well said Mudd!! Everyone has their own way of achieving the same objective... I too was a avid Archer before I was a rifle shooter, even competing and winning some 3D tournaments. I tended to explore every major influence on my shooting with thorough research. I do the same with my rifle shooting, that's the reason I always have questions... I don't sleep well, tend to talk to myself, and ask myself questions, and my brain is constantly asking for technical data and won't shut down...I love this stuff!!!lightbulbgun)


If you can imagine the rifle as a big tuning fork, and how holding it in different areas will affect the harmonics. It becomes clear how gripping and squeezing the rifle with our bodies can influence the Nodes, Antinodes and Standing waves, one guys actually compares it to a guitar string and the frets, which is a good comparison of vibratory influence...

Ps. They claim Einstein tended to talk to him self and was a insomniac...

I would tend to say that despite our un-friendly beginnings, we are not that different. I suffer from ALL the same symptoms you have described for yourself. Which is why I'm still awake on here most nights. I am certainly no Albert Einstein, but I'm no Forrest Gump, either...I do sport a decent IQ, although some would probably argue that fact.

I have been an insomniac for over a decade. Since my first year of college I have had the absolute worst bout with insomnia. My mind races 24/7, and I have to take melatonin most nights just to slow my mind enough, just to start to get sleepy, or else I will be up till 8-10am the next day, and finally pass out from exhaustion, and sleep all day.

The rifle is just like a guitar string/tuning fork. Accuracy is all about harmonics. Which is why everything from your action being bedded, barrel being floated, action screws being properly torqued, and ammo nodes affect performance. Just like tuning a race engine in your drag car...It's all about finding that perfect harmonic balance.

 

[gohring3006]

I would tend to say that despite our un-friendly beginnings, we are not that different. I suffer from ALL the same symptoms you have described for yourself. Which is why I'm still awake on here most nights. I am certainly no Albert Einstein, but I'm no Forrest Gump, either...I do sport a decent IQ, although some would probably argue that fact.

I have been an insomniac for over a decade. Since my first year of college I have had the absolute worst bout with insomnia. My mind races 24/7, and I have to take melatonin most nights just to slow my mind enough, just to start to get sleepy, or else I will be up till 8-10am the next day, and finally pass out from exhaustion, and sleep all day.

The rifle is just like a guitar string/tuning fork. Accuracy is all about harmonics. Which is why everything from your action being bedded, barrel being floated, action screws being properly torqued, and ammo nodes affect performance. Just like tuning a race engine in your drag car...It's all about finding that perfect harmonic balance.

I agree with all of this...