Nightforce lately?

[AaronSkipDavidson]

- I know I'm a little late to the party here, but this has been an interesting thread to say the least and I felt it was worth my two cents.

Aaron, I'm a Gunwerks fan and previously owned one of your rifles, that shot well by the way, and I agree with a lot of what you've had to say in the thread. I am however curious to know if you have tested the NX8 at all. Based on your statement, as quoted above, you listed weight as a benefit to some of the products you now currently offer over some of the old products you did offer. Now from your objective standpoint would the new NX8 not provide some benefit over the Mark 5? The 4-32 is definitely smaller, provides more magnification, and is slightly lighter than the 5-25. And while the 2.5-20 is of similar size to the 3.5-18 Leupold it does provide slightly more magnification if you were to compare the two. Your admiration for the Atacr and the NXS is obvious based your admitted sales for both of them, and with the NX8 being a mix between the two (since it has mostly ED glass) wouldn't it be worth looking at? I'm no Nightforce supporter, but I like their products let me say that. If you disregard the behind the scenes issues you had with nightforce, as an industry leader, would it make sense as a revolutionary company like yours to test a revolutionary scope like the NX8 (whether it be the 2.5-20 or the 4-32)? Maybe the benefits of the NX8 aren't great enough for you to carry them based on your issues with the company but to the average long range hunter like me it could be. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the line personally. Many of us on here respect your educated opinion.

I think they landed nicely for magnification and size. With Gunwerks 100 percent first focal plane (it took 2 yrs to implement that one!), it was an attractive compact package to consider. Although, with that wide a magnification range, a useable reticle is really hard to design.

After spending several years and quite a bit of cash developing the Revic PMR smart rifle scope, I became really fond of non-raising turrets. The Revic has non raising, locking, and tooless zero technologies built into the adjustments, not to mention the first position encoders of it's kind. With all of the ballistics onboard and a micro display, it truly is a revolutionary product.

With the Japan OEM supplier Gunwerks/Revic and Nightforce use, they supply the optical assembly package and the customer develops the rest.

The nx8 uses essentially the same turret mechanism nf has perfected over 20 years. It's good, but old. The optical package is cool, but in ffp, how useable is the range? Are the other optical trade offs worth it?

Sometimes we catch hell when I make a decision about where I limit the options to our rifle systems. It was really hard to eliminate sfp options! But, when I really believe that the customer will benefit, we'll go against the stream to make it happen.

Other good examples would be BDC turrets, and the 7mm Rem Mag cartridge, I think we should get credit for saving it from the 300 RUM back in the day!

I like the nx8 lineup, and like nf products it's going to work. The sexy mag range just wasn't enough to pull me in. But then again, I know how the sausage is made, and as evidenced by the Revic PMR, I like really substantive, cool/new technology!

 

[Weaselthis]

Randy Newberg says March is junk! April is way better...........
View attachment 190590

OK, that right there is funny & made my day.
Can't help myself.......I concur...March sucked.....April no better, although I DID get to kill a nice pig for my 70th b-day. I've decided that May will be the time to fully exercise my right of civil disobedience. I'm feeling like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs!
Free California!

I know...absolutely NOTHING to contribute the OP's post.....so there was a time I would bash your noggin in if you even TOUCHED the knobs on my Leupold 3.5x10x44 plex. Killed a lot of animals w/ that scope on a 7RM. All hail KING LEUPOLD!

Then along game the LR shootin game, 2008. Ever try to hit a 20"x30" target w/ that scope and never having shot past 426yds. in your life? Enter Zeiss Rapid Z-800 4.5x14x44, (still iffy on first round hits), then ta-da! NXS 5-22x50...bingo found the answer....if you can DIAL ya have a better chance of hitting things. That scope is now on my Stiller comp gun (9yrs.,3 shot out bbls., and many thousands of rounds later) and still doin it, an doin it, and doin it well! I have 3 SHV's on a '06, 7mm30WM, & .280 AI, all 3 hunting rifles. Many pigs, deer, elk, 'yotes, & bobcats felled to these 3. For what I use em for as to MY intended use, the NF's are the shizzle. No scientific data for support, just a happy consumer. In the end result that's all that matters to me. I can see Skip's POV...good on him, hope folks can see mine.
Tedford, from Roseville, California, OUT!

 

[gpo1956]

He never said NF sucks you moron. Here you go again not actually arguing a point but just Flailing around because you don't like facts

Probably the most pertinent post in this whole silly contest. We've got the competitors, the supporters, the LEO's and the usual know-it-all suspects. The only category missing is the operators. Sorry. I forgot for a moment that this isn't Snipers Hide.

 

[KSAv8r]

Well........Ladies & Gentlemen. I think this has been the longest thread in LRH history and I think the only thing that has been resolved is there are several excellent scopes being manufactured today (which is a good thing). Secondly is that all manufacturers will have a defective product get out the door every now and then. Customer Service makes a difference when one spends several thousand $$$. We want a manufacturer to stand behind their product.

Lastly, LRH folks come in all shapes and sizes. There isn't a single rifle, scope, barrel, trigger, stock, etc. that fits all of us for every purpose/mission (which is a really good thing). This creates a market at various price points and quality that meets the budget and goals of most of us. Democracy and capitalism are two things to cherish. Competition, whether between manufacturers or individuals, makes us all better. Or as they say "a rising tide floats all boats".

I realize a company has to make a profit to stay in business. However, if I'm going to pay the price for a custom rifle, whether for benchrest or a specific hunting trip, performance is the only thing that counts. The company's relationship with their vendors has never won a match for me or put meat on the table. I don't appreciate pushing products where they make the most profit. It is up to them to fairly price their work/products that I want to make a profit to stay in business. Customers will vote with their $$$ on whether they have achieved that goal.

 

[AaronSkipDavidson]

"performance is the only thing that counts"

The problem with Optics and "performance" is that a layperson can only observe/measure a few of the parameters that we care about. Its kind of like shooting drops to validate drag performance vs measuring with a doppler. Brute force.

Also, one person's important parameter is not the same as another. Another ballistic analogy would be judging terminal performance based on impact energy vs velocity. We can easily chase the wrong metrics or methods to quantify performance.

I would argue that people are more interested in "value" than performance. Again raising the specter of "perception".

Eg, I think items like weight, size, eyebox forgiveness, parallax sensitivity are equally important in comparisons. Weight and size are easy but the other two are not. The same thing happens with optical parameters. With mechanical, we can measure some items, but our resolution is affected by the measurement method. Mounted on a rifle, vs fixtured in the lab.

The truth is "good enough" becomes the reigning standard and everyone is evaluating different metrics. It's the wild west, no wonder no one ever agrees on anything!

 

[crazyhorse]

Skip I think your last post hit the nail squarely on the head. Its been my experience MOST people in the LR shooting/hunting sport don't have a full understanding of all the components in a truly high quality optics system and how one affects the other but they do have a "perception" as you mentioned and I really think that perception drives a bulk of the sales and choices the end user might make when buying optics.

I think NF has captured the attention of most shooters in this game with a solid "good enough" rating across all of the parameters and a reputation for rock solid durability (hence all the adamant support in this thread). The chief complaint (and also the most obvious) for NF especially among hunters is weight but when you start shaving ounces, generally speaking, some of the durability goes along with it. At the end of the day the dedicated sheep hunter, every ounce counts type is a very small percentage of the high end optics market by comparison to deer, elk hunters, PRS guys, BR, etc.

The upper end of the optics world, as well as custom rifles, is kind of like the stock market. to get on the board you have to be built on a proven success that can endure the swings, but at the end of the day buyer confidence decides if a product or company is going to die, survive or thrive!

As I mentioned way back in this thread, I think you and Gunwerks deserve a tremendous amount of credit for bringing LR hunting and shooting to the popularity it enjoys today. Companies like yours who continue to test and develop high quality components required to be successful in this sport keeps the industry as a whole healthy and looking forward!

 

[AaronSkipDavidson]

Thank you!

 

[GunHawk]

Thank you!

I learned a lot from your shows (too bad my current content provider doesn't have it) so thanks for your contribution to the sport.

 

[AaronSkipDavidson]

I learned a lot from your shows (too bad my current content provider doesn't have it) so thanks for your contribution to the sport.

We've been dropping seasons on YouTube. I think we are up to 6.

 

[Marky_mark]

You guys are always creating something new and exciting
Leaders of the pack
I wish we could use that new blastr up here in canada! It looks awesome

 

[Rick Richard]

We've been dropping seasons on YouTube. I think we are up to 6.

Yep, I have been watching them...a bunch. Thank you sir.

 

[Mc Fraser]

"performance is the only thing that counts"

The problem with Optics and "performance" is that a layperson can only observe/measure a few of the parameters that we care about. Its kind of like shooting drops to validate drag performance vs measuring with a doppler. Brute force.

Also, one person's important parameter is not the same as another. Another ballistic analogy would be judging terminal performance based on impact energy vs velocity. We can easily chase the wrong metrics or methods to quantify performance.

I would argue that people are more interested in "value" than performance. Again raising the specter of "perception".
...........

Hi Aaron,

I am a very big fan of your business model and your shows.
I agree with your comments. I don't think I am the only one that will appreciate an unbiased "how-to guide" to buy hunting-related products or gain the knowledge to see past the marketing BS presented by Gunwerks.
I find myself in the market for a new scope, and I can't find any technical information that is not a marketing brochure. Take any two scopes, the only "metric" available online to compare the two is company reputation and forums, both biased to individuals or company marketing strategy. Every company publishes specs, but let's be honest those are more guidelines.

Thanks,
Mc Fraser.

 

[AaronSkipDavidson]

A nice comparison chart of real measured values:

Revic PMR 428 Smart Rifle Scope - MIL RX1

www.revicoptics.com

 

[COBrad]

Just replaced a leupold VX6HD with another Nightforce. This one is a 2.5-10 on a NULA. Was trying to save a few ounces with the leupold. Have to say I like the NF far better and TRUST it. My NF's have always worked, leupold has not been so good for me.