New to reloading...issue with FL RCBS die

[live2huntmt]

It has been a long time since I read any die directions, but I believe they tell you to turn the die past hitting the shell holder.

 

[Bigeclipse]

It has been a long time since I read any die directions, but I believe they tell you to turn the die past hitting the shell holder.

in mine it says back it off a quarter turn. anyways...I resized the brass and now it fits so either I didn't resize it right or something is going in...so right now I tumble my brass..then deprime/resize and then I put the brass in ultrasonic with 50/50 water and vinager mix with couple drops soap. can this step be messing with the brass sizing some how?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

in mine it says back it off a quarter turn. anyways...I resized the brass and now it fits so either I didn't resize it right or something is going in...so right now I tumble my brass..then deprime/resize and then I put the brass in ultrasonic with 50/50 water and vinager mix with couple drops soap. can this step be messing with the brass sizing some how?

Nothing there that should affect your brass. Why do you sonic clean after sizing?

My steps,

Insert neck part way into tub of Unique and twist, careful not to get too much lube on inside of neck, then rub a very small amount on case wall. This lubes inside of neck to reduce runout from expander.

Decap and size.

Clean neck and shoulder with green scotch cleaning pad.

Wipe off case with paper towel.

Using Q-tip, remove any lube from inside of neck and shoulder area.

Clean primer pockets.

Run and twist small punch through flash hole.

Measure case OAL and trim if necessary. Chamfer mouth inside and out if trimmed.

Seat primers... ready to load.

I very seldom clean cases anymore. The Unique lube does a good job of that when it is wiped off.

Not sure what is going on, but it sounds like there is some sort of inconsistency in your sizing process. You check your press, shell holder, dies etc, to make sure they are in good working order and not loose.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Nothing there that should affect your brass. Why do you sonic clean after sizing?

My steps,

Insert neck part way into tub of Unique and twist, careful not to get too much lube on inside of neck, then rub a very small amount on case wall. This lubes inside of neck to reduce runout from expander.

Decap and size.

Clean neck and shoulder with green scotch cleaning pad.

Wipe off case with paper towel.

Using Q-tip, remove any lube from inside of neck and shoulder area.

Clean primer pockets.

Run and twist small punch through flash hole.

Measure case OAL and trim if necessary. Chamfer mouth inside and out if trimmed.

Seat primers... ready to load.

I very seldom clean cases anymore. The Unique lube does a good job of that when it is wiped off.

Not sure what is going on, but it sounds like there is some sort of inconsistency in your sizing process. You check your press, shell holder, dies etc, to make sure they are in good working order and not loose.

I sonic clean after resizing because it cleans the lube off, really cleans the inside, and also gets the primer pocket/flashhole. this process has worked well for others online so I'd figured it would work for me. my press is sturdy and the dies were all brand new. I followed the directions plus some guideance from a friend (which seemed like he kind of knew what he was talking about). the only thing I can think of is I didn't give the case a full stroke on the press...
I didn't have and issue with any of my 300wsm loads...made about 15 of those and so far I'm at just over 100 pistol loads...all of which have fired fine and were accurate.

 

[MagnumManiac]

in mine it says back it off a quarter turn. anyways...I resized the brass and now it fits so either I didn't resize it right or something is going in...so right now I tumble my brass..then deprime/resize and then I put the brass in ultrasonic with 50/50 water and vinager mix with couple drops soap. can this step be messing with the brass sizing some how?

So far most of the info you have gotten is not entirely correct.
If you have a RCBS press and you're using RCBS dies, the instructions clearly state to screw the die down until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram and screw the die IN another 1/8 to 1/4 turn, this takes up all slack in the press linkages. Another piece of info that gets missed by a lot of first time loaders is that if there is a gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die when a case is installed, FL sizing is NOT occurring, only partial sizing is occurring. Brass fired in another chamber rarely will fit in another chamber, only FL sizing correctly will reduce the brass enough to fit another rifle, the reason this happens is because one chamber may not only be longer but also wider, when you resize it, the shoulder gets elongated by all that brass being squeezed from the body, then, if the shoulder isn't pushed back to minimum spec, it will be too long to chamber and cause your kind of problem. If you neck size a case only, I guarantee it will chamber in your rifle without issue, so should a once fired case, because no body manipulation has taken place. Only when a fired case from YOUR rifle won't chamber again should there be concern about headspace issues.

Hope this clears up a few misconceptions, and I will add, that once you have FL sized those cases fired in another rifle, you should adjust your dies so that you get a slight 'feel' as you close the bolt, this will give you better case life because the fired brass WILL conform to your chamber.

Cheers.
gun)

 

[MontanaRifleman]

So far most of the info you have gotten is not entirely correct.
If you have a RCBS press and you're using RCBS dies, the instructions clearly state to screw the die down until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram and screw the die IN another 1/8 to 1/4 turn, this takes up all slack in the press linkages. Another piece of info that gets missed by a lot of first time loaders is that if there is a gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die when a case is installed, FL sizing is NOT occurring, only partial sizing is occurring. Brass fired in another chamber rarely will fit in another chamber, only FL sizing correctly will reduce the brass enough to fit another rifle, the reason this happens is because one chamber may not only be longer but also wider, when you resize it, the shoulder gets elongated by all that brass being squeezed from the body, then, if the shoulder isn't pushed back to minimum spec, it will be too long to chamber and cause your kind of problem. If you neck size a case only, I guarantee it will chamber in your rifle without issue, so should a once fired case, because no body manipulation has taken place. Only when a fired case from YOUR rifle won't chamber again should there be concern about headspace issues.

Hope this clears up a few misconceptions, and I will add, that once you have FL sized those cases fired in another rifle, you should adjust your dies so that you get a slight 'feel' as you close the bolt, this will give you better case life because the fired brass WILL conform to your chamber.

Cheers.
gun)

Yes and No... You are correct in the directions from RCBS in turning down the die 1/8-1/4 turn past touching the shell holder. Just looked it up online.

However, the bottom of the web of the case is typically 20 or more thou above the shell holder. So if you turn the die up a 1/4 turn or so, rather than down the entire case is being sized. Just did it and visually inspected.\

Not sure what you mean by a "feel" when closing the bolt, but I think most will agree that the shoulder should be set back enough so the case chambers with an "easy" bolt.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I sonic clean after resizing because it cleans the lube off, really cleans the inside, and also gets the primer pocket/flashhole. this process has worked well for others online so I'd figured it would work for me. my press is sturdy and the dies were all brand new. I followed the directions plus some guideance from a friend (which seemed like he kind of knew what he was talking about). the only thing I can think of is I didn't give the case a full stroke on the press...
I didn't have and issue with any of my 300wsm loads...made about 15 of those and so far I'm at just over 100 pistol loads...all of which have fired fine and were accurate.

Interesting enough, i just ran into a similar problem last night sizing 19 300 RUM cases. All but one would not chamber after being sized with the die adjusted to the same depth as they had been sized before, which was about 1/8 turn above the shell holder. One of the cases did chamber fine. This is about the 4th firng give or take for this brass and it has been pushed pretty hard. Some cases will no longer hold primers and others hold them loosely. I tried sizing a couple at 14 turn below the shell holder and again at 1/2 turn below the shell holder and they still would not chamber without a lot of force.

Hopefully you've got yours figured out.

 

[okie man]

your sizing cases for one chamber that have been fired in another chamber. some fit some don't. do this! raise shell holder to top of stroke. screw die down as tight as you can by hand. lock it down. put a case in shell holder and raise ram to top. look at the shell holder and see if it's tight to bottom of die. I bet there is a gap between them. if so, lower ram and turn the die a 1/4 turn down and try again. I like the shell holder to just kiss the bottom of die. now you're real close to a fully sized case. put the sized case and see if it fits. if it is still tight you can buy a shell holder that is a few thousands shorter and repeat the above steps. another thing, you have a rifle with a spring loaded ejector. putting sharpie or candle soot on shoulder is a waste of time. unless you size the case way under size the ejector will still force the case into the shoulder giving the impression that you have properly sized the case. you have to remove the firing pin and spring loaded ejector to use the soot method. even then the extractor can push the case tight into shoulder before it snaps over rim of case . I adjust die until I can feel just a bit of compressing of case when locking the bolt and go 1/16 turn more.
neck length can be checked several ways. I like mine about .oo5 from max the rifle will allow. you will have to trim after each firing though.

 

[Bigeclipse]

your sizing cases for one chamber that have been fired in another chamber. some fit some don't. do this! raise shell holder to top of stroke. screw die down as tight as you can by hand. lock it down. put a case in shell holder and raise ram to top. look at the shell holder and see if it's tight to bottom of die. I bet there is a gap between them. if so, lower ram and turn the die a 1/4 turn down and try again. I like the shell holder to just kiss the bottom of die. now you're real close to a fully sized case. put the sized case and see if it fits. if it is still tight you can buy a shell holder that is a few thousands shorter and repeat the above steps. another thing, you have a rifle with a spring loaded ejector. putting sharpie or candle soot on shoulder is a waste of time. unless you size the case way under size the ejector will still force the case into the shoulder giving the impression that you have properly sized the case. you have to remove the firing pin and spring loaded ejector to use the soot method. even then the extractor can push the case tight into shoulder before it snaps over rim of case . I adjust die until I can feel just a bit of compressing of case when locking the bolt and go 1/16 turn more.
neck length can be checked several ways. I like mine about .oo5 from max the rifle will allow. you will have to trim after each firing though.

Thanks for the input but I actually resized the cases that wouldnt fit yesterday and now they fit...so I must not have given them a full press stroke or I didnt have the die properly seated which I will double check from now on.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Yes and No... You are correct in the directions from RCBS in turning down the die 1/8-1/4 turn past touching the shell holder. Just looked it up online.

However, the bottom of the web of the case is typically 20 or more thou above the shell holder. So if you turn the die up a 1/4 turn or so, rather than down the entire case is being sized. Just did it and visually inspected.\

Not sure what you mean by a "feel" when closing the bolt, but I think most will agree that the shoulder should be set back enough so the case chambers with an "easy" bolt.

So, MontanaRifleman, I'm incorrect, am I.
What has the 'bottom of the web' have to do with FL sizing? This part of the case makes no difference, but having the shell holder touching the bottom of the die when a case is installed means that the shoulder is being sized back to minimum. The entire case less the web means absolutely nothing, screwing the die out or up will only lengthen the case and not allow it to chamber. I think you need to reread everything you've ever done because it is incorrect. The entire reason the OP had problems was because the die wasn't touching the shellholder when a case was being sized.
An easy bolt could have a headspace/head clearance of anywhere from .002"-.010", unless you have measured a sized case against a fired case from your rifle, you will never know, but having a slight feel when closing the bolt will have a minimum amount of headspace, even when I bump .002" under MY chamber specs there is a slight feel on closing the bolt, unlike a sloppy factory case which has no feel at all.
I feel you have given incorrect info, assumptions and nonsense to the OP, his problem was simply fixed by adhering to the original instructions furnushed with the die set, too many internet people think they know it all, and all they do is confuse new handloaders and make their problems worse.
No 2 chambers are ever the same, even if cut with the same reamer, so you can't assume that your method of setting your dies or your theories pertain to another rifle, it simply just doesn't happen.

gun)

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Well now...

So, MontanaRifleman, I'm incorrect, am I.
What has the 'bottom of the web' have to do with FL sizing? This part of the case makes no difference, but having the shell holder touching the bottom of the die when a case is installed means that the shoulder is being sized back to minimum. The entire case less the web means absolutely nothing, screwing the die out or up will only lengthen the case and not allow it to chamber. I think you need to reread everything you've ever done because it is incorrect. The entire reason the OP had problems was because the die wasn't touching the shellholder when a case was being sized.

No... I don't have to go back and reread anything. I know how to size dies and have been doing it quite successfully for years. The die does not need to touch the shell holder for a FL sizing. Most of mine don't and in my operation the entire case, neck, shoulder (if needed) and case, to the bottom of the web are sized correctly to fit my chamber. By correctly, I mean all the dimensions of the case fit in the chamber without resistance, nor are they over sized to leave too much play or headspace. Maybe you didn't read my process in adjusting my die, so I'll outline it again for you.

I screw the die down until it touches the shell holder as a point of reference. Then I back it out slightly, maybe a 1/4 turn. Then I size a case and try it in the chamber. If it fits loosely, I back out the die until the case will not chamber. When i get to the point the case will not chamber, I begin in small increments to turn the die back down until the case chambers with an easy bolt - meaning with no resistance. At this point, my case is perfectly sized for my chamber. This method has served me quite well for 25 years. I have developed many accurate loads using it, sub MOA and sub 1/2 MOA and below are some pictures of the most recent load I developed in a 300 RUM as evidence. The die in this case is a Redding FL die set to about 1/8th turn above the shell holder. The cases feed smoothly and the bolt closes easily without resistance.

No sir, I do not need to reread anything thank you.

Maybe you can explain to us the process you use to adjust your dies to get "a feel" with your chambered cases.

An easy bolt could have a headspace/head clearance of anywhere from .002"-.010", unless you have measured a sized case against a fired case from your rifle, you will never know, but having a slight feel when closing the bolt will have a minimum amount of headspace, even when I bump .002" under MY chamber specs there is a slight feel on closing the bolt, unlike a sloppy factory case which has no feel at all.

Not true. I use my chamber to measure my case relatively to the size of my chamber as outlined above. In the process I use, which is a common and popular process used by many experienced handloaders and shooters, I bump my shoulders back approx 2-4 thou, based on the amount of turn I use to adjust the die. 1 full turn = approx .075"

I agree that my cases "feel" different than a loose factory load. Part of that is due to the fact that factory loads use virgin brass which is typically produced 2 or 3 thou under spec case dimensions. It sounds to me like you do it very similar to me?

I feel you have given incorrect info, assumptions and nonsense to the OP,

Please show specific instances where I have given incorrect info and nonsense to the OP.

his problem was simply fixed by adhering to the original instructions furnushed with the die set,

Maybe you should go back and read the OP's conclusion. He thought that maybe he wasn't using a full stroke leading to the inconsistency in his brass size. If you go back and read my observation, I suggested to him that he was doing something inconsistent in his process.

too many internet people think they know it all, and all they do is confuse new handloaders and make their problems worse.

Too many internet people (BTW, you are also among the internet population) like to make a big deal out of nothing and get into useless ******* matches.

No 2 chambers are ever the same, even if cut with the same reamer, so you can't assume that your method of setting your dies or your theories pertain to another rifle, it simply just doesn't happen.

You are telling me nothing new here. Just ******* in the wind. My method assumes nothing. My method results in cases that are perfectly sized for my chamber.

Good day sir.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Well now...

No... I don't have to go back and reread anything. I know how to size dies and have been doing it quite successfully for years. The die does not need to touch the shell holder for a FL sizing. Most of mine don't and in my operation the entire case, neck, shoulder (if needed) and case, to the bottom of the web are sized correctly to fit my chamber. By correctly, I mean all the dimensions of the case fit in the chamber without resistance, nor are they over sized to leave too much play or headspace. Maybe you didn't read my process in adjusting my die, so I'll outline it again for you.


You are telling me nothing new here. Just ******* in the wind. My method assumes nothing. My method results in cases that are perfectly sized for my chamber.

Good day sir.

I appreciate everyone's help on this and did not want to start trouble here. I think everyone probably has their own method and what works for them is great unless it is "unsafe". I do think you are correct that I had an issue with my process (not doing a full stroke on my press) but I will not be certain until I have gone through some more reloads. I do like your thought process on setting the die up though...I will begin with them being backed out a little(1/4 turn)...try the case in my rifle...if tight, then srew die down in small increments until the brass chambers easily BUT not sloppily. I think the biggest issue was the brass that wouldnt chamber, mosty likely was bras that was fired in my buddies rifle which would account for it not fitting in my chamber easily. I checked the once fired brass that I actually shot in my rifle...and they all chamber fine without resizing. I then resized one just to see if anything would happen...and it also chambered fine. The biggest lesson I have learned is I need to SLOW down and focus on ALL steps, not just the "safety critical" steps such as powder measure and pressure checks/signs. Again, I thank everyone for their input on this.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Well now...



I appreciate everyone's help on this and did not want to start trouble here. I think everyone probably has their own method and what works for them is great unless it is "unsafe". I do think you are correct that I had an issue with my process (not doing a full stroke on my press) but I will not be certain until I have gone through some more reloads. I do like your thought process on setting the die up though...I will begin with them being backed out a little(1/4 turn)...try the case in my rifle...if tight, then srew die down in small increments until the brass chambers easily BUT not sloppily. I think the biggest issue was the brass that wouldnt chamber, mosty likely was bras that was fired in my buddies rifle which would account for it not fitting in my chamber easily. I checked the once fired brass that I actually shot in my rifle...and they all chamber fine without resizing. I then resized one just to see if anything would happen...and it also chambered fine. The biggest lesson I have learned is I need to SLOW down and focus on ALL steps, not just the "safety critical" steps such as powder measure and pressure checks/signs. Again, I thank everyone for their input on this.

No worries, you nor your thread started any trouble.

Are you using separate brands and/or lots of brass? Have they been fired different amount of times? If so, that could also be a source of problems. Not all brass will act the same when run through a die. My RUM brass is a good example of that. The last firing for most of them left the brass in a state where it did not respond to sizing very well. One piece out of 19 did size properly and that one probably was not fired as much or pushed as hard as the others. Still trying to figure that out.

Make sure you are using same brand of brass and hopefully the same lot. Since they were fired out of different rifles, you might want to consider sizing them and then annealing the necks and shoulder and then sizing them again to get them back to a common baseline.

Speaking of slow, I find that deliberately taking slow smooth sizing strokes usually produces better results in run out as well as seating.

 

[MagnumManiac]

MontanaRifleman,
I set my dies by measuring the fired cases with a RCBS Precisiin Mic, this is a precise measuring tool, and no, your technique as I outlined is NOT FL SIZING, it is PARTIAL SIZING. This is how I get .002" shoulder bump and the 'feel' when closing the bolt. This is called PARTIAL SIZING.
This was the point I was trying to make, you may think that the upteen posts you made about your method of sizing cases was informative and helpful, obviously wasn't to the OP, because he still had the same trouble.
I don't care what method you or I use to size our cases, the OP needed to understand that a case fired in another rifle will almost always need to be sized as the INSTRUCTIONS SAY TO BRING THE CASE BACK TO FACTORY SPECS SO THAT IT WILL FIT ANY CHAMBER. Even +.003" in shoulder length will cause hard chambering in most bolt actions.
Again, telling the OP how YOU do it did not help his situation and was just nonsense. Just because none of your rifles have minimum chambers DOES NOT mean that your technique is the right or wrong one, in many cases your technique works, but not in every situation, I have chambers that need to have .010" machined off the shellholder to reduce the case enough to chamber, do you think your technique would work for this situation? I could put a .010" feeler gauge under the case to achieve the same thing, but this is tedious when loading 100 or more cases.

Good luck to you sir.

gun)