New rifle with a few questions

[Kansaswoodguy]

I personally would sell the 30-06 spending all sorts of money on fixes is more often an exercise in madness than anything productive. The copper in the end of the barrel is never a good sign. I'd pick up a Savage in 223 rem with a 1-8 twist one of accutrigger and accustock models. 223 Rem is much cheaper to shoot on a budget than 30-06 and more than capable of shooting to 750yds using 75gr pills this would be a very good starter gun for a new shooter.

 

[Tac-O]

So.... after remounting my scope and having someone at the range (who was shooting a light 300winmag under 1") shoot my gun, I'm pretty confident that my Remington 783 is a dud. I went back and checked my actual round count, which is 160 rounds. Plenty of rounds to get this barrel broken in and smoothed. I went from at least 12" spread right out of the box to somewhere around 4" at 100 yards after pillar and glass bedding and lots of ammo. I believe I'm done with this gun and will replace it before I waste more time and money on it.

So, I've looked around the last couple of days and have been trying to decide between the Tikka t3x superlite ($750 at sportsmans) and the Remington AWR ($800 at cabelas), still in .30 06. My current goal is to be able to reliably take an animal at 400-500 yards. I'd like a gun that is mostly impervious to the elements and is lightweight enough to haul around the mountains for extended periods and is of a quality that it can be hard used and be kept around for years and years. I checked out both in store yesterday.

Tikka: I don't like the plastic nature of the tikka, but the trigger guard can be replaced and I can live with cheap looking stock at long as the gun is accurate. The Tikkas seems to have a great reputation for being very accurate out of box. Yes, the superlite is stupid lite and will be hard to shoot accurately in the field, but I can learn to deal with that and if the lack of weight really proves to be a problem, I'll figure out a way to add weight to the stock. There seems to be plenty of aftermarket options for these guns now, which is nice even though I don't want to have to do anything to it immediately. The bolt slide nicely and didn't have any wiggle. The trigger is reportedly pretty nice. The fluting on the barrel seems like it would be a nice addition to help the barrel cool a bit faster at the range. My concern with the Tikka is that the general build quality didn't seem as robust and long lasting as the AWR.

Remington: Is the quality department still on sabbatical at the Remington factory? If it is, I'm not sure I want to gamble with the AWR. The AWR has some really nice features for only being $50 higher than the T3x. The weight is slightly more than I'd like, but there's not any plastic on this gun. The 5R rifling is enticing, but that's pointless if there's something wrong with the gun. The triggers apparently are not actually adjustable down to 3 or 3.5, whatever Remington says it is. I've only seen people reporting they got it down to slightly below 4lbs. Very nice stock, pillar bedded, all cerakoated, 5R rifling, tons of aftermarket parts. But, it's a Remington and they have no MOA guarantee.

My main issues with the tikka are that I'll eventually buy some replacement bottom metal, I fear I may have to add weight to the stock, and I fear I may end up with one that I have to shoot 10 different types of factory ammo to find a single 1 that it will shoot under MOA.

My main issues with the AWR is that Remington's quality department is apparently nonextistent nowadays (wish I would have known before buying my 783) so the likelihood of having something really wrong with it is higher, it's slightly heavier than I'd like, The trigger will need replaced, and I feel like I would likely have to shoot 10 boxes of ammo to find 1 that it shoots well.

I plan to make a decision today. Thoughts?

 

[Alibiiv]

So.... after remounting my scope and having someone at the range (who was shooting a light 300winmag under 1") shoot my gun, I'm pretty confident that my Remington 783 is a dud. I went back and checked my actual round count, which is 160 rounds. Plenty of rounds to get this barrel broken in and smoothed. I went from at least 12" spread right out of the box to somewhere around 4" at 100 yards after pillar and glass bedding and lots of ammo. I believe I'm done with this gun and will replace it before I waste more time and money on it.

So, I've looked around the last couple of days and have been trying to decide between the Tikka t3x superlite ($750 at sportsmans) and the Remington AWR ($800 at cabelas), still in .30 06. My current goal is to be able to reliably take an animal at 400-500 yards. I'd like a gun that is mostly impervious to the elements and is lightweight enough to haul around the mountains for extended periods and is of a quality that it can be hard used and be kept around for years and years. I checked out both in store yesterday.

Tikka: I don't like the plastic nature of the tikka, but the trigger guard can be replaced and I can live with cheap looking stock at long as the gun is accurate. The Tikkas seems to have a great reputation for being very accurate out of box. Yes, the superlite is stupid lite and will be hard to shoot accurately in the field, but I can learn to deal with that and if the lack of weight really proves to be a problem, I'll figure out a way to add weight to the stock. There seems to be plenty of aftermarket options for these guns now, which is nice even though I don't want to have to do anything to it immediately. The bolt slide nicely and didn't have any wiggle. The trigger is reportedly pretty nice. The fluting on the barrel seems like it would be a nice addition to help the barrel cool a bit faster at the range. My concern with the Tikka is that the general build quality didn't seem as robust and long lasting as the AWR.

Remington: Is the quality department still on sabbatical at the Remington factory? If it is, I'm not sure I want to gamble with the AWR. The AWR has some really nice features for only being $50 higher than the T3x. The weight is slightly more than I'd like, but there's not any plastic on this gun. The 5R rifling is enticing, but that's pointless if there's something wrong with the gun. The triggers apparently are not actually adjustable down to 3 or 3.5, whatever Remington says it is. I've only seen people reporting they got it down to slightly below 4lbs. Very nice stock, pillar bedded, all cerakoated, 5R rifling, tons of aftermarket parts. But, it's a Remington and they have no MOA guarantee.

My main issues with the tikka are that I'll eventually buy some replacement bottom metal, I fear I may have to add weight to the stock, and I fear I may end up with one that I have to shoot 10 different types of factory ammo to find a single 1 that it will shoot under MOA.

My main issues with the AWR is that Remington's quality department is apparently nonextistent nowadays (wish I would have known before buying my 783) so the likelihood of having something really wrong with it is higher, it's slightly heavier than I'd like, The trigger will need replaced, and I feel like I would likely have to shoot 10 boxes of ammo to find 1 that it shoots well.

I plan to make a decision today. Thoughts?

My first thought is to say to not act impulsively. I'd suggest that you be a bit more patient do a little more research before spending your hard earned money. You've already experienced the purchase of what a bad rifle is like. I'd like to suggest that you take a look at the different cartridges that are out there, and Lord knows there are a great number of them to choose from. It took me six-months to make a decision on what caliber to make a build on, to meet what I wanted it to do. Make your purchase a "fun" thing and not something that is going to torture you; once you have bought that rifle you are married to it. I checked your area, found four gun shops, "Big S sporting goods, The Armory, Joe's Firearms, The Gun Vault." Try going to these gun shops to handle, shoulder and work the actions on. If you are starting out, I would suggest that you get something with less recoil than the 30-06, it's a bit stout in the recoil department. Getting accustomed to recoil is not as easy as some might think, especially for a new shooter with limited experience. The .270 Winchester is a great caliber that will reach out a great distance without the recoil of the 30-06, the cartridge is quite accurate, ammunition is easy to find, the round has a good history and for some a good following. I was not a fan of the .270 until I got one at a very cheap price as a donor rifle, shot it out of curiousity before making the build. After shooting the rifle I built a .270. If weight is an issue, try looking at the short-action calibers, the .308 Winchester is another great round that ought to fill your requirements and shooting expectations; again a little lighter in the recoil department. There's the 7mm-08, the 6.5 Creedmoor (can't believe I just suggested this one), 6.5 X 55, 25-06 and just a plethora of other rounds out there, that will do what the 30-06 will do and a lot easier on the shoulder. The 6.5 Creedmoor might just be a great round to start out with; and, you certainly will find a following on the forum for the round. I hope this has helped, from what you have written here you are determined to find a great shooting rifle, goo luck with your find.

 

[Bang4theBuck]

I want to echo Alibiiv's remarks regarding caliber. I really don't think that 30-06 is the best choice for your stated goal. Don't take our word for it, do the math on your own. Do a comparison of a few different calibers for their efficiency. Look at the powder charge versus the velocity achieved. Look at the recoil energy generated for the terminal energy that you need at 4-500 yards. This will give you some scale of the 'efficiency' of the cartridge. My approach changed a few years ago. I now build rifles to shoot them 12 months out of the year, and I adapt them to the 1 or 2 shots per year that I take on hunting trips. That approach may not fit you, but you need hundreds of rounds of practice with shooting, and wind calls, and such to even take the 4-500 yard shot, in my opinion. 260 Rem, 7mm-08, and 6.5CM, and 308 Win seem to all be better choices, my opinion.
As far as brand.....I have a bunch of Remingtons, and I love them. But, I could not recommend them right now. The last couple that I had trued were way out in left field from being true. You will absolutely have to replace the trigger in the Remmy. So, whatever the cost of the rifle, you need to factor in $150-300 for a new trigger. I really don't think that there are any quality issues with a Tikka. Even their entry level, plastic stock is better than most. If you go that route, you can fill the butt stock with Lead BBs or some other media like that, and cut the recoil down while practicing. The actions are smooth, the triggers are excellent, right out of the box, and the price point excellent on them. I also would not overlook the savage, They just flat-out shoot. Get one one of the calibers above, with an accustock, accutrigger, and go to town. If and when you want to change calibers, or you shoot the barrel out, you can change the barrel yourself with minimal investment. I would recommend a model 10, or 12 over the model 11, for what that is worth. Keep us posted on what you decide.

 

[Tac-O]

I want to echo Alibiiv's remarks regarding caliber. I really don't think that 30-06 is the best choice for your stated goal. Don't take our word for it, do the math on your own. Do a comparison of a few different calibers for their efficiency. Look at the powder charge versus the velocity achieved. Look at the recoil energy generated for the terminal energy that you need at 4-500 yards. This will give you some scale of the 'efficiency' of the cartridge. My approach changed a few years ago. I now build rifles to shoot them 12 months out of the year, and I adapt them to the 1 or 2 shots per year that I take on hunting trips. That approach may not fit you, but you need hundreds of rounds of practice with shooting, and wind calls, and such to even take the 4-500 yard shot, in my opinion. 260 Rem, 7mm-08, and 6.5CM, and 308 Win seem to all be better choices, my opinion.
As far as brand.....I have a bunch of Remingtons, and I love them. But, I could not recommend them right now. The last couple that I had trued were way out in left field from being true. You will absolutely have to replace the trigger in the Remmy. So, whatever the cost of the rifle, you need to factor in $150-300 for a new trigger. I really don't think that there are any quality issues with a Tikka. Even their entry level, plastic stock is better than most. If you go that route, you can fill the butt stock with Lead BBs or some other media like that, and cut the recoil down while practicing. The actions are smooth, the triggers are excellent, right out of the box, and the price point excellent on them. I also would not overlook the savage, They just flat-out shoot. Get one one of the calibers above, with an accustock, accutrigger, and go to town. If and when you want to change calibers, or you shoot the barrel out, you can change the barrel yourself with minimal investment. I would recommend a model 10, or 12 over the model 11, for what that is worth. Keep us posted on what you decide.

Thank you both for the advice!

I do have the intention of using this rifle for smaller game without worrying about too much bloodshot meat and the takedown power for larger game... Elk, moose, antelope, etc. Of course I wouldn't take it on a large dangerous animal hunt, like a grizzly hunt.

So, I'd like to be able to use it as an all around rifle. From everything I've read a .270 and 6.5 creedmore aren't really elk rifles. Of course you can kill one with those but then you have to worry way more about placement, and things don't always go perfectly in the field. Also, I have no problem with learning to deal with the recoil. I'd love a .30 magnum round but thwythe more expensive and then idIbe destroying more meat I'm smaller game.

Taking that into consideration, does that change any thoughts?

 

[Alibiiv]

Thank you both for the advice!

I do have the intention of using this rifle for smaller game without worrying about too much bloodshot meat and the takedown power for larger game... Elk, moose, antelope, etc. Of course I wouldn't take it on a large dangerous animal hunt, like a grizzly hunt.

So, I'd like to be able to use it as an all around rifle. From everything I've read a .270 and 6.5 creedmore aren't really elk rifles. Of course you can kill one with those but then you have to worry way more about placement, and things don't always go perfectly in the field. Also, I have no problem with learning to deal with the recoil. I'd love a .30 magnum round but thwythe more expensive and then idIbe destroying more meat I'm smaller game.

Taking that into consideration, does that change any thoughts?

Nope doesn't change my thoughts on what I've written whatsoever. I don't consider myself an expert at all. What I can tell you that I have been hunting/shooting extensively for 55+ years, tactical firearms instructor 15+ years. For me I buy a rifle for what I intend to hunt or to shoot. Finding a long range rifle, on elk sized animals, that I can use to shoot small game with does not exist and makes no sense! Good luck with whatever you decide to purchase.

 

[Bang4theBuck]

I would say that thousands of elk have been killed with a 270 win. I have even heard some say that a 270 is their 'goto rifle for elk'. Another perspective is the 6.5x55 Swede has been used by European friends to kill moose for a really long time. The answers are all within your ballistic app. Look at the specs on the bullet that you intend to shoot, and what velocities it needs to perform reliably. Then look at which cartridge delivers that velocity with those bullets, out to the ranges that you want to potentially extend yourself to, and you will have all of the data to analyse. Fine tune your screening process with the other factors, like the need to use it on smaller game, the need to keep it light weight, the need to keep your shot distances down. Almost any 6.5mm or larger caliber center fire rifle is an Elk rifle out to some distance. Do some research on the significance of sectional density, this is one of the biggest factors on terminal performance, it too will enlighten you. Good Luck.

 

[Tac-O]

I would say that thousands of elk have been killed with a 270 win. I have even heard some say that a 270 is their 'goto rifle for elk'. Another perspective is the 6.5x55 Swede has been used by European friends to kill moose for a really long time. The answers are all within your ballistic app. Look at the specs on the bullet that you intend to shoot, and what velocities it needs to perform reliably. Then look at which cartridge delivers that velocity with those bullets, out to the ranges that you want to potentially extend yourself to, and you will have all of the data to analyse. Fine tune your screening process with the other factors, like the need to use it on smaller game, the need to keep it light weight, the need to keep your shot distances down. Almost any 6.5mm or larger caliber center fire rifle is an Elk rifle out to some distance. Do some research on the significance of sectional density, this is one of the biggest factors on terminal performance, it too will enlighten you. Good Luck.

Do you have any good links you can recommend for sectional density reading?

Also, do you have any recommended links for information on loads that are at the higher end of weights? For example a .308 or .30 06 round that is closer to the 215g range? At some point, maybe in a couple years, I might start hand loading. Looking at the extremely high BC of 215g Hornady .30 bullets makes me want to delve into shooting them at some point.

I fear this project of wanting to have an accurate 500yd hunting rifle is going to end up as another obsessive hobby... I have too many but the ballistic physics is just so interesting!

 

[Riverking01]

Do you have friends that shoot also? Have them bring their guns and try them. If you're all over the place with their guns and they are shooting good groups then you know it's you. Maybe they have some Varmint rifles you could shoot to help you get used to the recoil in smaller steps.

 

[Kansaswoodguy]

I missed your stated goal of killing game at 400-500yds get a 6.5 Creedmoor and never look back it's great for distance shooting light in recoil easy to reload for when you get to that point.

 

[LVJ76]

A 270 Win or a 7mm-08 are great options for Elk. If you want a cartridge on a short action I would go with a 7mm-08 over a 6.5 CM. On a long action and low recoil a 270 is great. The 270 can push the 130gr Accubond at over 3,000 fps and the 140gr close to that. Great out to 500yds. Thw 7mm-08 will push a 140gr and good out to 400yds or a 120gr monolithic good out to also 400 yds. No need for a +200gr bullet for deer or Elk, especially if you want to save meat

I would take both over a 308 or a 30-06 any day in a heartbeat, but if you prefer a 30 cal, I would go with a 30-06.

Now if you want to use +200gr bullets you will need a 300 Win Mag or larger cartridge to properly use those bullet weights. The 30-06 will push a 200gr bullet at a muzzle velocity of barely 2,600 fps, not enough for a 500 yds shot. You will need to stick with a 150gr or maybe a 168gr bullet tp be able to use at say a 500yd shot.

Smaller caliber bullets have better ballistics, like a .284, a .277 or a .264. So bullets may not need to go as fast to reach farther. Also these provide less recoil in a variety of cartridges, like the 7mm-08, 280 Rem, 280AI, 270 Win, even a 25-06 works good on Elk. And all provide less recoil than the 30-06. You can even get a 7mm Rem Mag and have the same recoil as the 30-06, it will smoke the 30-06 on performance. Ammo is available with a wide range in bullets and is available everywhere.

So, recap: there are tons of options p2ut there, but for long range I recommend you pick what will work and work best.
A 7mm Rem Mag, or a 280AI, or a 300 Win Mag, last a 270 Win.

These 4 options will work great and with better ballistics than the 30-06 and all can reach farther than the 30-06. The best 2 are the 7 RM and the 300WM.

Follow Riverling's advise and try out some other cartridges and see what you like and feel comfortable shooting.

 

[Tac-O]

A 270 Win or a 7mm-08 are great options for Elk. If you want a cartridge on a short action I would go with a 7mm-08 over a 6.5 CM. On a long action and low recoil a 270 is great. The 270 can push the 130gr Accubond at over 3,000 fps and the 140gr close to that. Great out to 500yds. Thw 7mm-08 will push a 140gr and good out to 400yds or a 120gr monolithic good out to also 400 yds. No need for a +200gr bullet for deer or Elk, especially if you want to save meat

I would take both over a 308 or a 30-06 any day in a heartbeat, but if you prefer a 30 cal, I would go with a 30-06.

Now if you want to use +200gr bullets you will need a 300 Win Mag or larger cartridge to properly use those bullet weights. The 30-06 will push a 200gr bullet at a muzzle velocity of barely 2,600 fps, not enough for a 500 yds shot. You will need to stick with a 150gr or maybe a 168gr bullet tp be able to use at say a 500yd shot.

Smaller caliber bullets have better ballistics, like a .284, a .277 or a .264. So bullets may not need to go as fast to reach farther. Also these provide less recoil in a variety of cartridges, like the 7mm-08, 280 Rem, 280AI, 270 Win, even a 25-06 works good on Elk. And all provide less recoil than the 30-06. You can even get a 7mm Rem Mag and have the same recoil as the 30-06, it will smoke the 30-06 on performance. Ammo is available with a wide range in bullets and is available everywhere.

So, recap: there are tons of options p2ut there, but for long range I recommend you pick what will work and work best.
A 7mm Rem Mag, or a 280AI, or a 300 Win Mag, last a 270 Win.

These 4 options will work great and with better ballistics than the 30-06 and all can reach farther than the 30-06. The best 2 are the 7 RM and the 300WM.

Follow Riverling's advise and try out some other cartridges and see what you like and feel comfortable shooting.

Awesome. Thanks everyone for all the insight. I'll have to do some more reading and thinking for awhile before deciding.

What about factory ammo cost? I found an article today that mentioned a 7 rem mag being a great gun for larger game so I checked out ammo prices and they seem quite a bit more than .308 and .30 06.

Part of the reason I initially chose .30 06 was due to the price of factory loads and it's versatility in the range of bullets it can shoot. .308 is nearly the same, but can't do the higher weight bullets as well (I think).

.270 is the only other cartridge I know of that compares to or beats the cost of the old .30 cals and has significant power at long range. But, it seems that a lot of hunters say you shouldn't hunt tough 800lbs+ game with it farther than maybe 300yds. So, that's part of the reason for being a bit hesitant in going with a light, fast cartridge. Is that just old school thinking that is wrapped around the older powders not giving as much power and it just won't die?

 

[LVJ76]

Awesome. Thanks everyone for all the insight. I'll have to do some more reading and thinking for awhile before deciding.

What about factory ammo cost? I found an article today that mentioned a 7 rem mag being a great gun for larger game so I checked out ammo prices and they seem quite a bit more than .308 and .30 06.

Part of the reason I initially chose .30 06 was due to the price of factory loads and it's versatility in the range of bullets it can shoot. .308 is nearly the same, but can't do the higher weight bullets as well (I think).

.270 is the only other cartridge I know of that compares to or beats the cost of the old .30 cals and has significant power at long range. But, it seems that a lot of hunters say you shouldn't hunt tough 800lbs+ game with it farther than maybe 300yds. So, that's part of the reason for being a bit hesitant in going with a light, fast cartridge. Is that just old school thinking that is wrapped around the older powders not giving as much power and it just won't die?

The 7mm RM ammo will be $5 to $7 more per box of 20, however, but you pay for the performance. With the 30-06 you will lose from 100 to 200 yds of reach than with the 7mm Rem Mag.

 

[aushunter1]

So.... after remounting my scope and having someone at the range (who was shooting a light 300winmag under 1") shoot my gun, I'm pretty confident that my Remington 783 is a dud. I went back and checked my actual round count, which is 160 rounds. Plenty of rounds to get this barrel broken in and smoothed. I went from at least 12" spread right out of the box to somewhere around 4" at 100 yards after pillar and glass bedding and lots of ammo. I believe I'm done with this gun and will replace it before I waste more time and money on it.

Ok so I had to re read this thread a couple of times & if I am reading it right you have only use the Winchester silvertip factory ammo?
Is that correct??

Did you actually shoot multiple brands/types of ammo through the rifle??

I have only had 2 Rem 700's & they both shoot sub MOA with factor & handloads.