New problem, need expertise!

[Crane]

Maybe I didn't articulate myself correctly because I know Chad's pedigree and his knowledge in this area, as well as many others here, far exceeds mine. I intend to take Chad's advice as soon as I can. Work always gets in the way of the important things.

Thanks for everyone's imput. From what I've been reading this is not an uncommon occurrence which makes it strange that the answer is not more readily understood. I thought I would shoot a factory round fire forming to the new shape load them up and be ready to roll. Maybe the easiest way to accomplish is would be to pull some factory loads then re-seat them into the lands.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Almost every rifle I have is a wildcat of some sort and requires forming of the brass. Fill the case about 3/4 full of bullseye put some cotton in the top to keep the powder in in the case then fire. Have done thousands upon thousands this way with not one failure--perfect case every time. Learned this trick from Speedy.

 

[jmason]

Almost every rifle I have is a wildcat of some sort and requires forming of the brass. Fill the case about 3/4 full of bullseye put some cotton in the top to keep the powder in in the case then fire. Have done thousands upon thousands this way with not one failure--perfect case every time. Learned this trick from Speedy.

BH, does the cotton have no ill effect on the barrels? Just curious if it just burns up and leaves nothing behind melted to the bore? I have wondered what to use before to help take up space in the cases.

 

[Crane]

I've heard the cornmeal method (grits in the south) can erode the throat but I doubt the cotton would have any ill effect. I'm going to buy some new Remington brass today and compare the cotton method vs. long seated bullet vs. other factory rounds.

 

[Boss Hoss]

BH, does the cotton have no ill effect on the barrels? Just curious if it just burns up and leaves nothing behind melted to the bore? I have wondered what to use before to help take up space in the cases.

In a word--no.

 

[NesikaChad]

One thing I've neglected to mention as I was sorta curious to see if anyone else would comment is/was the plunger ejector that is standard on so many actions. It can be kinda the Achilles heal in all this. Especially with a stock coil spring. It's fun to watch cases ejaculate themselves from a loadng port till a guy starts thinking about how that offset plunger affects a chambered round. That spring loaded little bastage is doing everything it can to keep your case head away from the bolt face and if the chamber is loose enough; the cartridge will wind up cockeyed in the chamber. If I were fire forming I'd consider removing it and manually peeling the fired cases from the loading port until I built up my desired quantity of brass.

If you decide to leave it in, run your neck tension a wee smidge tighter to mitigate the bullet slipping in the case when you rotate the bolt into battery. Keep your loads on the conservative side for the initial "sneezing" and only size enough case to achieve reliable feeding, chambering, and extraction. Again I'd only use a Redding/Wilson die for this.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Chad

 

[elkaholic]

I've had some experience with the ackley and similar cases in fire forming and I can just about guarantee you that it is caused by a headspace problem. (NOT as a result of the gunsmith) but the fire forming process itself. If you are going to use 25-06 brass and fire form with a bullet seated, you will have to jam it into the lands to keep the case from moving during the firing. This may not work either? The best method would be to use .270 cases and neck them to 25 leaving a (false shoulder) far enough ahead so that the bolt closes stiffly on the case. Don't use a bullet but rather load a small charge of shotgun powder (I use 11 grs of red dot) fill the rest of the case with cream of wheat and top off with a paper plug to hold everything together. You will have to trim the case afterward as the .270 is .046" longer. This will be a benefit anyway as the cases will shrink approx. .015" when forming. i.e. fire forming a 25-06 to form an ackley will cause you to end up with a very short neck (under spec) If they are not properly fire formed, you will separate the cases right ahead of the web after a couple of firings! Another sure fire method is to call Lonnie Hummel at Hornady and have him build you a hydraulic forming die. Hope this helps....Rich

 

[BillR]

I've been using a .25-06 AI for a few years now and have never had this problem. I use LC .30-06 brass and neck it down in two stages. First .270 and then .25-06 and then trim to length. I have a tight neck chamber so I have to then turn the necks down to the right thickness and trim to length and then anneal it. I then load it with a load I use in my other .25-06's with a cheap bullet and fire it. Comes out right every time. I do end up with a slight bulge upon resizing from where the old .30-06 neck was just below the .25-06 neck and if I don't get this sized just right I cannot chamber the round. It might be that is the reason I'm not having the bulge problem. The slight bulge helps with the head spacing and keeps it tight against the bolt. The bolt also has a Sako style extractor so that might help also. One thing I did find to be critical though was to anneal the case again after fire forming. If I didn't I ended up with a neck that would not hold the bullet tight. I re-size the case to about .003 smaller than the chamber neck and it works great. Took me a lot of playing around to get everything just right but once I had it all right it shot like a dream with no case problems. Annealing was the secret with this gun. That and getting the case neck thickness just perfect. I have never tried it with .25-06 Factory brass as I have too many .25-06;s to feed to waste the brass on this project and had a ton of old LC once fired .30-06 brass that could be destroyed if it didn't work right. Usually after the second firing the cases once tumbled looked like brand new brass and from then on all I do is neck size them. Something else is that I trim the cases to standard .25-06 case length and I don't really see how with all this you could be off on head space. Great gun and cartridge if you like to tinker.

 

[Coyboy]

If an ackley chamber is headspaced properly seating bullets into the lands is completly unneccesary when fireforming.

Heres why, a standard 25-06 chamber is cut to the go gauge, or with-in a thou or two. This allows the bolt to close on new brass with no resistance.

An ackley chamber should be headspaced to about .004" bellow the standard 25-06 go gauge. This is so that when the bolt is closed on new brass, there IS RESISTANCE. That resistance is the leading edge of the case shoulder being crush fit into the chamber shoulder at the neck juncture.

When done this way the brass can not move forward from the plunger(although I like Chads Idea of removing it) or from the fireing pin strike. It is locked in place so only the shoulder and case walls are expanded, and the web does not stretch.

If at all possible when you have an akley built send the smith 20 pcs of brass from the same lot, that will feed the rifle for it's life. Then smith can modify the headspace to put a precise crush fit on the brass YOU will feed the gun. Now the whole web stretching issue is a nonissue.

This is also why a factory tube can not be acklied properly without setting the barrel back some to produce the crush fit.

Now the problem with your gun as I said earlier, UNDERSIZED brass at the web dia. (measure your webs and compare them to a saami spec for that chamber) did you try that yet? The other possibility is an oversized reamer created a chamber that is a touch too big. But my bet says it's a brass size issue, I seen it on a 280 ackley with rem brass that measured .464" at the web.

 

[Crane]

Measured the brass at the bulge and got .4755 Just got the gauge from Kevin in the mail moments ago, I'll try and call him later after the Alabama - LSU game...of course Penn State may be on then and he won"t answer. Just bought a bag of .270 brass, some Blue Dot and bullets. I'm gonna try Boss Hoss's and Chad's method compared to fire formed factory loads. This may be a silly question but is there any problem necking down a false shoulder on the .270 brass to .257 with bushing dies? Running a .281 for the Remington brass. I've heard a regular full length die may be preferable or even required. I can't thank everyone enough for sharing their knowledge. Hopefully I'll have a chance to pass this all on to the next guy.

 

[Crane]

I've learned quite a bit from everyone's imput thank you all very much. The chamber appears to be just as it should be. I read where I couldn't neck down brass with bushing dies and had to use full length dies. Using the Redding bushing dies and Remington brass I necked down .270 brass to .257 successfully. As per Boss Hoss's recommendation and quite a bit of trimming I used Blue Dot and toilet paper to fire form. After annealing and loading the brass looks perfect after testing some loads with no signs of bulging. Not much luck with my Accubond/H1000 loads today. I think I need a Lee hand press so I can tailor loads at the range. The harder I pushed it the better it seemed to shoot. Each load was increased by .02 grains. I set the Accubonds 5 thousands off the lands. I'm open to try anyones recommended load combinations. Thanks again to everyone and especially Kevin Cramm at Montour County Rifles. His service continued way after he dropped the rifle in the mail. I already have plans to use him again and highly recommend his work.

 

[Moman]

I would try seating the AB's .020 off the lands. Every gun I've used them in has done real well there.