New Beast from Allen Precision Shooting!!!

[Milepost]

Sounds like you are working on expanding the target line up. Thats a good thing! When you say seating is tender process what are you meaning?

I might be a nut. but i think one way to get a precise high BC bullet is lathe turn a bullet to the form and shape needed for the best BC and consistency and transonic crossing. Then mill it out and fill it with lead. That would make the BC and give the ability to keep the bullet more stable. Best of both worlds. But as I said. I might be a nut.

It would also allow you to move the center of gravity around to help keep the bullet more stable and free up some design limitations thus increasing the BC even more.

 

[NEMTHunter]

It would also allow you to move the center of gravity around to help keep the bullet more stable and free up some design limitations thus increasing the BC even more.

Shape and weight make BC. Moving the weight around would give you the ability to make the most stable bullet for the given shape and BC

 

[Fiftydriver]

Again good info Kirby. I agree. Yes the RL26 is to slow. But intill I find a powder with the same fill rate as RL26 but thats faster I am going to keep using it. 65 grains a 215 berger and 28" barrel net right @ 2850. and it shoots good. Seems like no matter the powder charge I throw At the .300BSM it shoots good. Not the case with the 06. It just seems to be more picky. Put it like this, I tested from 120 to 124 grains of US869 with a 230 berger and there was only a 4.5" vertical difference @ 400 yards from the light to heavy charge and that was 5 grains of powder swing. I feel that good. BUT I might be all wet! LOL

Kirby have anymore info on the build that you started the thread with? How about that hammer bullet? anymore testing?

I would think RL23 or H4350 would be nearly ideal for your purpose.

Rifle I started this post about met my accuracy standards. Customer allowed me to do some load development and ballistic testing but understandably wanted the rifle to play with ASAP so sent it off to him. New test barrel will be in shop soon for a personal test rifle which will be a 10 twist 40" finish length and I will be able to do extensive load development, bullet testing and ballistic testing as it will a shop test rifle, not a customer rifle.

 

[Fiftydriver]

We have not loaded this bullet on the website. It is still a bit prototypical. Definitely specialized as far as oacl. We sent a good number of them to the owner of the rifle that Kirby tested them with. We also sent a batch to another lrh member that had chambered a simular rifle to Kirby's. We have done another in .338 that we load developed in my hunting rifle. 338 lap imp 30" 9" twist. Bullet is 270g class and we loaded it to 3200 fps with good accuracy at 200y. Now need to go launch it across the canyon and see what it shows.

As these sit, seating is a tender process that must be done with care. Loaded cartridges must be treated carefully as well. We may make some changes here if we can do it without sacrificing performance.

Steve and Brian basically met my dreams with this bullet design. It was a design to work in my chamber and throat specs so if they were designing a bullet for the market, I am sure there would be differences so I must say up front that they went above and beyond with this project and the results were amazing.

Also, this bullet was designed specifically for this 458 Maximus which is not to say it will not work equally well in any other large 458 caliber rifle with appropriate twist rate. It WILL NOT work in a repeating rifle, it WILL NOT work in a rifle where you have to seat the bullet very deeply into the case capacity.

This is a hybrid bullet design meaning that the front drive band is a few thou over bore diameter which means that the rifling WILL engrave the front drive band but not very deeply. Simply to provide the function of centering the projo in the bore and giving it some front end rotational stability.

The body of the bullet is very reduced for no contact with the lands in any way. Then there is a relatively short rear drive band of full groove diameter for proper gas seal. Had the bullet been designed first then the rifle built after, I am sure there would have been some changes to this design but for the purpose of this rifle, its nearly perfect in my opinion.

Give the advantages of a conventional projo being able to be seated to the lands for fine accuracy and instant bullet rotation as it starts down the bore.

Also gives some of the advantages of a bore rider as its pretty slippery to push down the bore because of the limited contact with the bore.

In my testing, with the 458 Maximus, the neck tension was PLENTY to securely hold these projos with no worries of bullets being moved out of alignment with the bore. However remember this is a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE and these bullets in the 458 were designed specifically for this purpose and use.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Sounds like you are working on expanding the target line up. Thats a good thing! When you say seating is tender process what are you meaning?

I might be a nut. but i think one way to get a precise high BC bullet is lathe turn a bullet to the form and shape needed for the best BC and consistency and transonic crossing. Then mill it out and fill it with lead. That would make the BC and give the ability to keep the bullet more stable. Best of both worlds. But as I said. I might be a nut.

That has actually been tried a few times and yes it does work but adds dramatically to the cost of the bullet. In my opinion, this would have the most benefits in calibers under 338 caliber. In calibers over this, the bullets have enough mass to produce very good BC. Its the smaller calibers that simply can not get enough mass to produce true high BC designs.

Probably the most common bullet that tried this was the Winchester Black Talon which was a conventional shaped bullet, basically a solid design with the base of the bullet having a lead insert. Again very costly. Some custom bullet makers have even tried using Tungsten cores for more weight and yes it does work, but again, cost is very high and that makes it hard to make a living at it unless your putting out a very high volume of product.

Not a bad idea at all, just the practical side of business gets in the way at times.

 

[Milepost]

That has actually been tried a few times and yes it does work but adds dramatically to the cost of the bullet. In my opinion, this would have the most benefits in calibers under 338 caliber. In calibers over this, the bullets have enough mass to produce very good BC. Its the smaller calibers that simply can not get enough mass to produce true high BC designs.

Probably the most common bullet that tried this was the Winchester Black Talon which was a conventional shaped bullet, basically a solid design with the base of the bullet having a lead insert. Again very costly. Some custom bullet makers have even tried using Tungsten cores for more weight and yes it does work, but again, cost is very high and that makes it hard to make a living at it unless your putting out a very high volume of product.

Not a bad idea at all, just the practical side of business gets in the way at times.

Yeah, I totally get it! I would pay maybe an extra buck a bullet if it had a significant and verifiable improvement. At $3+ a piece, these bullets are not cheap! Tungsten is a great idea but has been found to be way more toxic than lead. The military has supposedly stopped using them for training use because of this.

 

[Milepost]

Steve and Brian basically met my dreams with this bullet design. It was a design to work in my chamber and throat specs so if they were designing a bullet for the market, I am sure there would be differences so I must say up front that they went above and beyond with this project and the results were amazing.

The body of the bullet is very reduced for no contact with the lands in any way. Then there is a relatively short rear drive band of full groove diameter for proper gas seal. Had the bullet been designed first then the rifle built after, I am sure there would have been some changes to this design but for the purpose of this rifle, its nearly perfect in my opinion.

Give the advantages of a conventional projo being able to be seated to the lands for fine accuracy and instant bullet rotation as it starts down the bore.

Also gives some of the advantages of a bore rider as its pretty slippery to push down the bore because of the limited contact with the bore.

In my testing, with the 458 Maximus, the neck tension was PLENTY to securely hold these projos with no worries of bullets being moved out of alignment with the bore. However remember this is a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE and these bullets in the 458 were designed specifically for this purpose and use.

Steve makes a very nice bullet. Although I'm sure these will work in my application I will see if he can add in a little more bearing surface and lengthen the BT to around a .7 - .8 Cal. BTW I am running a .540" neck.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Yeah, I totally get it! I would pay maybe an extra buck a bullet if it had a significant and verifiable improvement. At $3+ a piece, these bullets are not cheap! Tungsten is a great idea but has been found to be way more toxic than lead. The military has supposedly stopped using them for training use because of this.

Military used to use depleted uranium in their AP cannon ammo!!! Tungsten pretty eco friendly compared to that!!! LOL They have stopped using DU penetrators though. Hell, the US government feels lead is a hazard yet I have yet to see where a study has proven its a hazard to any ecosystem with used in hunting rifle bullets. There are some studies that lead shot has harmed waterfowl but those studies have also been debunked over the years, namely by the guy that did the study!!!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Military used to use depleted uranium in their AP cannon ammo!!! Tungsten pretty eco friendly compared to that!!! LOL They have stopped using DU penetrators though. Hell, the US government feels lead is a hazard yet I have yet to see where a study has proven its a hazard to any ecosystem with used in hunting rifle bullets. There are some studies that lead shot has harmed waterfowl but those studies have also been debunked over the years, namely by the guy that did the study!!!

Lol! No good reason I can think of to eat lead...

 

[Fiftydriver]

Lol! No good reason I can think of to eat lead...

Your just taking advantage of those California hippies!!! LOL!!! Keep on Keepin on!!!

The majority of big game I have killed over the past 4 years or so have been with your bullets!! Don't take as much game as I used to but lately its been with the hammer bullets when I do!!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Your just taking advantage of those California hippies!!! LOL!!! Keep on Keepin on!!!

The majority of big game I have killed over the past 4 years or so have been with your bullets!! Don't take as much game as I used to but lately its been with the hammer bullets when I do!!

That was low fruit that I couldn't pass up!

You not only taken game with Hammers, you have Hammered some stellar trophies!

 

[Milepost]

Military used to use depleted uranium in their AP cannon ammo!!! Tungsten pretty eco friendly compared to that!!! LOL They have stopped using DU penetrators though. Hell, the US government feels lead is a hazard yet I have yet to see where a study has proven its a hazard to any ecosystem with used in hunting rifle bullets. There are some studies that lead shot has harmed waterfowl but those studies have also been debunked over the years, namely by the guy that did the study!!!

Tungsten in its solid form isn't the problem. The problem with tungsten is that in its powdered form it leaches into the surrounding ground water rather quickly and is also readily absorbed by surrounding vegetation. Large amounts of toxic residue were created at the military shooting ranges hence their use being stopped. Machine shops also have to take special precautions for the same reasons. Check the EPA web site....

Lead, tungsten, zinc, mercury etc.. are all pretty nasty, but are naturally occurring in the environment. 99.9% of the time that isn't a problem. It's their high concentrations that are used in our high tech society that have made it an issue.

BTW- I'm no tree hugger but when only 1% of the water in the world is freshwater, we got to do our best to keep it clean. "Ya know" every living creature has to drink and with 7+ billion of us dumb --- humans on this earth it is becoming a real problem finding good, clean drinking water. Just my 2 cents...

Sorry to get off the OP's main subject but since it was brought up I just want to help get more people a bit more informed on this matter.

 

[Fiftydriver]

That was low fruit that I couldn't pass up!

You not only taken game with Hammers, you have Hammered some stellar trophies!

Yep, never had one take more then a few steps either!!

 

[jwp475]

I have thought about it but to be honest, I have yet to have the time to take off to go. Right now busting my hump trying to catch up on all old standing orders, get them shipped and then I am going to transition into a "sell out of inventory" type manufacturer. That way someone can call me up, see what I have in stock, send payment and rifle ships, no more 15-20 month wait or even more in some cases.....

No more dealing with parts issues causing delays. Rifles will be built, tested, proven and then put up as in stock ready to sell and ship. That's the plan anyway, have to get all standing orders out the door first and that is where I am now. Not much time to do anything but focus on that.

Plus I admit, I get more out of shooting out in the quiet wilds of Montana then going to crowded competitions. Nothing against them, just not my style.

Question have you ever noticed if a fast twist has less barrel life? The reason for my question is a friend that is an engineer thinks that the faster twist barrels induce more friction and wear faster. I don't think there is enough difference to notice. What does your experience tell you?