Need some help please

[7Footer]

Firemandivi sounds like me twenty years ago - I just wished this great resource of experience and expertise existed back then! Just like the OP - I was new to rifles and as such I wanted to make the most of my first purchase, so I bought a Savage 12 in 300WSM with a 26" varmint barrel and stock. The WSMs were the new kid on the block back then and seemed like the 300 could do anything I could see myself doing at that time- deer and elk and it would also be suitable for some sort of competition if I got carried away.
My first elk hunt, I dragged that boat anchor all over with nothing to show but tired shoulders. A month later, I took my 1st deer with it. Then I bought a lighter Savage with a 22" sporter barrel with the same 300WSM chamber. I still have both rifles and I still shoot them, but I have also acquired many other rifles in several different cartridges.
I tell this tale to anyone who has ever asked the same question Firemandivi is asking - where to start. This will be your first rifle, so get something that you can find ammo for, that will have the horsepower to do what you want, but nothing too expensive to shoot. Then take it out and shoot it - a lot. You will figure out if you love rifles or not- chances are you will, so although this will be your first rifle, it probably won't be your last. Don't be surprised when the "one gun for everything" turns out to be the first of several...
That said, I don't regret the 300WSM as my first rifle at all. I haven't bought ammo for it in a very long time because I quickly got sucked into the reloading game, so I'm not sure of the availability of factory ammo, but the recoil is manageable, and it's got enough juice for a moose with good bullets.
If I had to do it all from the start- like the OP, I would have bought the light hunting rifle first and not have thought I could have "one gun for everything."

 

[R. Cram]

Believe me I know. I have a 12 gauage pump, got a used bt99 and need a nice over/under for skeet and sporting clays. Also want a few nore pistols, really need a .22 for trapping. You can't have just one.

short barrels are fashion statements and waste potential velocity which is very important for hunting and for 1000 yd competition. I talked a young freind into going to a 1000yd match last summer and he enjoyed it and my hats off to him for going most people won't go. He has a 300wm which is good for both applications however the barrel life is short and as he learned the only way to be proficiant with long range hunting or competition shooting is to do it, just dialing come-ups and putting in a wind solution is not the answer trigger time is. there is another 1000 yd match next weekend and I asked him if he wants to go and he thoughtfully replied he doesn't want to eat up his barrel and wants to get a 308 to shoot so he isn't faced with replacing barrels. This is practical a 300wm or 6.5x284 or 243 or6.5 prc or 7mm rem all will be faced with needing a barrel at around 1000 rnds for acceptible accuracy at 600 yds at further . if you shoot 100 shots to get a good load and our matches are 600 800 900 an1000 yds with 20 shots plus sighters at each range that is close to 100 shots for a match. almost everyone who finally shoots a match enjoyes it and will shoot come back for more so if you shoot every match in a summer which if you want to progress is advisable and your skill level will increase rapidly doing so, one summer could leave you with an almost shot out barrel. A 308 needs 24 inches of barrel to stay reliably supersonic to 1000yds with of course some exceptions but it is silly to shorten barrels just for the fashion statement. I have been hunting for 50 years and have my favorite rifle a pre 64 win 30-06 with a 26 inch barrel an have hunted in every type of brush and open country and it is not very complicated to take the rifle off your shoulder to weave it through the brush and gladly do the weaving in order to get the preformance out of your cartridge. A 28 inch 30-06 is very close to the preformance of a 22 inch 300wm but doesn't eat the barrel at a rate which discourages a person for shooting and learning to do so better. the advice given here to read is wonderfull and never be nervous to go to a match nobody would ever ridicule you and instead would be very interested in helping. You will never see short barreled rifles at any type of long range competition as the are only a negative for that type of work. 6.5 creedmore is identical to a 260 rem and I shoot that across the course which is 200 300 and 600 yds and I gat about 2500 to 3000 rnds out of a barrel but a 308 will get 5000 to 6000 rnds so you will be less apprehensive about shooting it. 30-06 is great for hunting and long range and 5000 rnds for the barrel but it kicks more than the 308. have fun and shoot whatever you get a lot

 

[big johnson]

pick your poison (280 AI or 300 winney )

 

[Critter Picker]

I've read through 7 pages and nobody has mentioned a .22. If you are new to rifles start with a good .22. Get in a lot of trigger time and get the basics. Then, in this time of hard to come by ammo I have never seen anybody that couldn't get .308 ammo. You said you don't reload,but keep your brass. The 308 will do all you need with less recoil to cause bad habits.

 

[HunterMann]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I have been reading and reading and its really a sense of overload with all the information out there. I just want to point out, its only black bears, i want to hunt not brown. Also the $1200 is just for the rifle, I have about $3,000 saved up for everything, glass, bipod, new stock and some ammo if there is any left over. The third thing is I just want to shoot long distance, i dont have to compete i just want a rifle that will get me out there. With all I'm looking for it would take at least 2 rifles, one dedicated soley for distance and one for hunting. But i dont have the budget for that right now. I will keep reading and learning what i can before i drop money on a rifle. Thanks again for the adivce and your opinions.

I would finally suggest that you consider buying an inexpensive, but accurate (ie Savage or Ruger American) bolt action in .223. Get a decent scope, a bunch of ammo; and get started learning how to shoot small groups at different distances. 223 ammo is readily available, inexpensive; and in my experience, accurate enough for prairie dogs out to at least 500-600 yards (depending on wind conditions). For under 1K you could be having fun and learning the game. You can upgrade the rig if need to, but in the meantime you will be gaining the experience and knowledge to make an informed decision if and when you want to go bigger and longer.

 

[Firemandivi]

I should mention I do have a CZ 457 in .22 which I got as a training rifle to work on my fundamentals and such. I also was big into airguns and have an airforce condor in .22 which I have used on wood chucks out to 70 yards. Its surprising how accurate accurate those airguns are.

 

[jfolanddvm]

So much good information on here. I am not a competition shooter, but a hunter that loves to shoot long range. Can't go wrong with Tikka. I don't have the exact gun you were leaning towards - I have a .308 in the T3 lite, a CTR and a T3 Lite veil in 6.5cm, and several others. My favorite hunting rifle is a custom 7 mm WSM, but second to that, even compared to several other custom guns, is the Lite Veil. It's slightly over your budget, ($1,200-1.,300) but I think it is one of the best values out there and it shoots as well or better than my CTR. The stock is good enough, that you won't need to replace it. It is fully cerakoted with a ribbed barrel and comes with a muzzle brake. And once you feel the Tikka action, most of the other non customs feel like they are wrapped in sandpaper. I would lean towards the 300wsm as an all around gun. Pretty much the same ballistics as a 300wm, but (and I don't know why) I think the perceived recoil is more like a 30-06 than a 300wm. The 1:11 twist won't let you shoot the heaviest of bullets but should handle the 200.20x hybrid from berger, which is a great long range bullet if you ever start reloading. The other thing about 300wsm, is it seems to be one of the most common calibers in available ammo, with a fairly large selection at most of the larger sporting goods stores, so you shouldn't need to reload right away. Maybe not as large a selection as 308, but better for hunting IMO.
The one gun for everything is difficult, but the Lite Veil is a hunting rifle first and accurate enough to shoot well at long range.

 

[Djones8030]

I'm extremely new to hunting with rifles, in fact I've never hunted with a rifle before. I hunt with a bow and shotgun depending on the season. I'm getting into rifles now as I have the time and a little extra money to do it.

I'm looking for a rifle for deer, black bear and elk (if possible), but also capable of shooting for fun at f-class competitions up to 1,000 yards.

I've been looking at the Tikka CTR in 308 but it only comes with a 20" barrel which supposedly only losses about 100fps vs a 24" barrel. Not sure about accuracy and bullet stability though.

I would like to stay around $1,200 for the rifle because glass, bipod and a new stock add up quick. I have been searching the internet and am overloaded with info. Everyone has a different opinion of what is best, for long range shooting 6.5 creedmore is loved these days, but hunting elk with it is not looked favorably upon. While the 308 is an older cartridge and not as good for long distance but for hunting is still a very popular cartridge.

I'm leaning towards a 308 as it has proven capable for long distance shooting and is a very common hunting cartridge. But is a 20" barrel long enough for a 308? There seems to be less long distance rifles made in 308 these days, I can only assume because of the popularity of the 6.5 creedmore, but why are the 308's coming out with 20" long barrels, while the 6.5 creedmore have 24" barrels?

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

 

[Djones8030]

I'm extremely new to hunting with rifles, in fact I've never hunted with a rifle before. I hunt with a bow and shotgun depending on the season. I'm getting into rifles now as I have the time and a little extra money to do it.

I'm looking for a rifle for deer, black bear and elk (if possible), but also capable of shooting for fun at f-class competitions up to 1,000 yards.

I've been looking at the Tikka CTR in 308 but it only comes with a 20" barrel which supposedly only losses about 100fps vs a 24" barrel. Not sure about accuracy and bullet stability though.

I would like to stay around $1,200 for the rifle because glass, bipod and a new stock add up quick. I have been searching the internet and am overloaded with info. Everyone has a different opinion of what is best, for long range shooting 6.5 creedmore is loved these days, but hunting elk with it is not looked favorably upon. While the 308 is an older cartridge and not as good for long distance but for hunting is still a very popular cartridge.

I'm leaning towards a 308 as it has proven capable for long distance shooting and is a very common hunting cartridge. But is a 20" barrel long enough for a 308? There seems to be less long distance rifles made in 308 these days, I can only assume because of the popularity of the 6.5 creedmore, but why are the 308's coming out with 20" long barrels, while the 6.5 creedmore have 24" barrels?

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

The oft used rule of thumb for hunting big game in N. America is 30-06. Many great platforms, popular and time tested cartridge, and available in "hunting" platform for weight and ergonomics. I'd stick w the heavier rounds if you include elk+ in your hunting desires, and stay away from lighter, short action rounds. Ideally, you'd want a second platform for competition. These barrels tend to be heavier to accommodate a very large # rounds typically used when prepping and maintaining proficeincy.. you can also look at lighter/short action cals like the 6.5 CM etc al. If you want one rifle for both, go w 30-06 or 300 WM. Tons of load options in the 30 cal group.

 

[Nunu]

Firemandivi sounds like me twenty years ago - I just wished this great resource of experience and expertise existed back then! Just like the OP - I was new to rifles and as such I wanted to make the most of my first purchase, so I bought a Savage 12 in 300WSM with a 26" varmint barrel and stock. The WSMs were the new kid on the block back then and seemed like the 300 could do anything I could see myself doing at that time- deer and elk and it would also be suitable for some sort of competition if I got carried away.
My first elk hunt, I dragged that boat anchor all over with nothing to show but tired shoulders. A month later, I took my 1st deer with it. Then I bought a lighter Savage with a 22" sporter barrel with the same 300WSM chamber. I still have both rifles and I still shoot them, but I have also acquired many other rifles in several different cartridges.
I tell this tale to anyone who has ever asked the same question Firemandivi is asking - where to start. This will be your first rifle, so get something that you can find ammo for, that will have the horsepower to do what you want, but nothing too expensive to shoot. Then take it out and shoot it - a lot. You will figure out if you love rifles or not- chances are you will, so although this will be your first rifle, it probably won't be your last. Don't be surprised when the "one gun for everything" turns out to be the first of several...
That said, I don't regret the 300WSM as my first rifle at all. I haven't bought ammo for it in a very long time because I quickly got sucked into the reloading game, so I'm not sure of the availability of factory ammo, but the recoil is manageable, and it's got enough juice for a moose with good bullets.
If I had to do it all from the start- like the OP, I would have bought the light hunting rifle first and not have thought I could have "one gun for everything."

Totally agree. Hunting and F Class are two destinations on the opposite directions. When hunting you want it as light as possible while weight is friendly for your F Class rifle. If I will go back to when I have to decide what my first rifle is, it will be a hunting rifle and 308 or 30-06 will be on top of my list. Base on my experience, I have a leaning on the 06. It's not the best but it is very capable. There are more choices but availability of ammo is one of your concern since you're not yet reloading. Shooting 12 gauge slugs you'll be fine with 30-06. Welcome to the club. Let's have fun.

 

[Hugnot]

A .22-.250 works out well for all my needs. Small powder charges (33-37 grains) & cheap bullets (under $35). Wide variety of available bullets, mono core copper for deers, up to 88-90 for targets with 7 twist. I shoot 75 ELDM's from a 7.7 twist at 3250 & have found it to be more than adequate at 600 yards for targets, rodents & yotes. A most underated long range round. I have a .375 should the .22-.250 be inadequate. The .308 is nice but the 6.5 Creedmoor is nicer.

If brass is not available & cannot be made from other cartridges or costs like over $2 each - not much shooting but much looking! The common ordinary 6.5-06 is nice and comes real close to other rounds having magnum sized brass base/head but has less bolt thrust - psi exerted over a larger area. In addition brass may be easily made from 30-06 & .270. Speaking of the .270, some hunters that I know have killed a large amount & variety of game in many continents from Alaska to Africa armed with a .270W & .375H&H. The 6.5-06 offers a greater variety of pointy boat-tail bullets should targets over a 1/2 mile distant.

 

[Swinehunt74]

6.5PRC!!!!! 2Yrs ago I would have suggested 260, since 6.5 PRC came out, hands down my first and last pick........

 

[Swinehunt74]

TL-DR; all of it so ...

For people saying you can or can't shoot 1,000 yards with something less than a boutique Magnum or some other similar wildcat, just look to Europe where competition shooters are using so-called obsolete calibers like the 6.5x55 (aka 6.5 Swede) or the 308 Winchester (7.62x51). The 6.5x55 is a leading round for most 600m competitions on that side of the Atlantic and has been known to be used on the PRS as well. Are there better rounds, well better depends on what you look at and for but, generally the answer is yes but often the differences are relatively small.

I would say the 6mm Remington is better than the 243 Winchester. There is also the new darling, 6mm Creedmoor. If I miss or don't kill my deer, hog, etc., IT IS ME not the cartridge.

One rifle for everything from deer hunting to F-class 1000 yard competitions will mean a lot of compromises. Based on your original post, I tend to think picking the best hunting round first is most important. Then tweak it to shoot long-range as best you can which generally means getting a fast twist barrel for specialty solids and heavies.

Next, your budget will go MUCH FARTHER IF you buy a gently used rifle off the classifieds from here or a similar site like SnipersHide.com

If you put the bullets in the right spot and pick your shots carefully, you can HUMANELY take game animals with lesser cartridges. A bad shot with a larger more powerful cartridge will just destroy more edible meat. It will also take longer to come up to a good proficiency level.

I have a 300 Win Mag but, prefer the 7mm Remington for hunting big game in the USA. However, today I would build a 280 Remington (30-06 based 7mm). For Deer sized game, my 257 Weatherby is a hammer and half and should work well on Pronghorn and Moutain Goats, however, I would be fine shooting my 6.5x55 f that's what I have ammo for.

I'm looking for a rifle for deer, black bear and elk (if possible), but also capable of shooting for fun at f-class competitions up to 1,000 yards.

Deer, Black Bear, and Elk have all been taken with 6.5x55 and similar and larger calibers. On the LRH forum, people are focused on humanely taking game at extreme ranges so, that biases the general responses SIGNIFICANTLY IMHO. You take game with a bow and shotgun so, picking a shot at more modest ranges should be a reasonable expectation. With that, I would look at something like a 280 Remington that supports heavies with its barrel twist rate. This will reach the vitals of Elk and Black Bears to take them humanely. If someone suggests it won't anchor a deer, please get advice from someone else.

The 308W/7.62x51 gets a lot of 'talk' but, it is a little light for hunting at longer ranges. A higher sectional density round will retain more 'horsepower' at longer ranges and penetrate deeper. While the 308W is widely available in the retail stream, most of it is TOTALLY WRONG and INAPPROPRIATE for use in a hunting context so, I would suggest 30-06, 280 Rem, etc. in terms of factory hunting ammunition is not a significant handicap. In fact, something like my 6.5x55 "Swede" is hard to find at my local Walmart or hunting store but, I am also probably the only one in the county that will pay $40~$60 a box for a hunting load so, I could generally buy enough ammo for reasonable hunting adventures even in the depths of the ammunition shortage.

Please pardon the mini-novel length of this post!

6.5 rules, now look at the 260 or 6.5 PRC-(components unobtanium)!

 

[shorthair1]

Buy a long action LRH Savage, rebarrel to .284. Good for both, but might not be too competitive. How is your reloading skills?

Just a guess but since he said that he was new to rifle hunting I figure that reloading would also be pretty new to him also. And nothing wrong with that since we all were in his place once.