Neck sizing

[SidecarFlip]

Sidecarflip,

I'm pretty sure Murphy includes them in die sets, specifically to catch the unwary, and create alibi relays on those same Lake Erie shores of which you speak!

Kevin...

I don't go to shoot because I lack the expertise but I love to watch and of course peruse the exhibits and search for bargains. The National Matches are actually a spectacle for me and it's close by too.

No point in me going to the Shot Show in Vegas or to Harrisburg, PA for that show when just 60 miles away from me everything I'm interested in is there plus all the top shooting talent in the country and abroad actually competing.

I take it you attend as well? I know some great eateries in the Port Clinton, Marblehead area. It's a day trip for me. I go every year.

 

[Kevin Thomas]

Oh yeah, this year was my 20th. In that time, I've only missed one, and they had to stick me in ICU to keep me from going. Even then, I was entered, packed and on the way before I got stuck in the hospital.

Should'a gone anyway. The hospital stay sucked!

 

[Derek M.]

Dammit. Guess I'll keep FL resizing.

 

[BrentM]

I might have the dies mixed up but I thought it said it fully sized the neck and and a set up for a adjustable shoulder bump.

On the expander ball I just use the optional non-expand shank and run the decap process at the same time I size. RCBS includes it with the die or you can buy they separately.

Thanks.

If all your case necks have the same wall thickness within .001", I'd have your full length sizing die's neck honed out to .002" smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. Some die company charges for doing this are way less than 20 bucks.

I don't like the bushing full length sizing dies as they don't size the case neck all the way back to the shoulder but instead stop short 1/16 to 1/32 inch. Their makers claim that's done so the unsized portion of the case neck helps align it in the chamber neck. That's not reality in my opinion; that part of the case is smaller in diameter than the chamber neck therefore no way does it help center the case neck; it's the case shoulder in the chamber shoulder that does that. And their bushings are a bit loose in the die so they can get off center from the case body axis when the neck's sized. However, bushing dies from RCBS and Redding are probably the best ones out there commercially; Sierra uses Redding ones on their cases they'er made for and get great results.

Then decap fired cases separately in another die and toss that die's expander ball someplace.

 

[Mikecr]

Well regardless of what the herd does, the fact remains that FL sizing is not always required or employed. I've never seen anyone prove that partial neck sizing, with a shoulder bump, is any less accurate than that of FL sized cases. I highly doubt this will ever be demonstrated.
And there are advantages to a well worked out plan in neck sizing. For one, FL sized cases hold way more runout than neck sized only. Neck sized grow less, and require less trimming, so capacity holds longer. Bushing dies partial neck size so they don't bring donuts into play so much, and they're not introducing tension variance with all the overworking of neck area below bullet bearing.
And best of all, with NS/bump I can make 100pcs of Lapua brass last 6 lifetimes, so I don't care what they charge for it!

A grand work-around for the details in reloading -is pressure. Given enough of it, cases can be crooked as hell and vary badly in capacity & neck tension, and still shoot tight groups. It's a popular function of competitive cartridges to reach enough pressure to shoot competitively.
Drop the pressure on a 6PPC for example, and it shows a less than super cartridge character.
Crank the pressure up to a higher/wider tune, and now it shoots again, but:
-The cases won't last long
-You have no choice but to FL size them back into machine gun loading speeds(between conditions)
This both directly and indirectly leads to the vast majority of competitors FL sizing, and continually replacing brass(whether they realize it or not). It works well for them.

Where competition produces 1/2moa only with anomolies, competitors could back off on pressure a bit & use better capacities for bullets instead of under capacities. This is where they could maintain stable brass for many reloads, with partial NS/bump. And it could give them an edge over those constantly munging up their brass.
Where they're shooting larger over capacity cartridges, well they can't take advantage of extreme pressures anyway, so there is no gain in trashing their brass otherwise(through excess sizing).
The exception here, is chosen cartridges that are poor in design. They will have to be FL sized no matter what, and they rarely represent competition to a better field. This is the guy showing up with a 270..

As far as competition, and what competitors do, as a basis, this has a lot more to do with format, conditions, and shooter skills -than case sizing. Competitive trends are a continually moving target.
This is a long range HUNTING site. It's not about format, sighters, rests, grouping and competition. It's about single shot accuracy.
Getting a good case life plus very consistent capacities and low runout, can't hurt a thing for hunters. And IMO, with a good cartridge design, hunters would be better served to run rational loads, and pick up a bushing die for necks, a Redding body die for bumping, and a Sinclair mandrel die for neck expansion. Precision bullet seating with a Wilson & arbor press.
You won't be replacing anymore brass, and you'll shoot just as good as load development leads for your system.
But it's my opinion, and I think there are many qualifiers to consider before choosing the best sizing path.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Oh yeah, this year was my 20th. In that time, I've only missed one, and they had to stick me in ICU to keep me from going. Even then, I was entered, packed and on the way before I got stuck in the hospital.

Should'a gone anyway. The hospital stay sucked!

I'll make a note of that and prior to, I'll shoot you a PM and we can meet in person. I usually go with some of the group I shoot with and I have a very good friend who lives just south of there (out in the swampland) who usually shows up too. Real good waterfowl hunting in the grassy marshlands to the south of Route 2. Ohio bangs me pretty hard on the non resident permit but it's cheaper than going out west and my Federal stamp is good anywhere.

 

[SidecarFlip]

If all your case necks have the same wall thickness within .001", I'd have your full length sizing die's neck honed out to .002" smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. Some die company charges for doing this are way less than 20 bucks.

I don't like the bushing full length sizing dies as they don't size the case neck all the way back to the shoulder but instead stop short 1/16 to 1/32 inch. Their makers claim that's done so the unsized portion of the case neck helps align it in the chamber neck. That's not reality in my opinion; that part of the case is smaller in diameter than the chamber neck therefore no way does it help center the case neck; it's the case shoulder in the chamber shoulder that does that. And their bushings are a bit loose in the die so they can get off center from the case body axis when the neck's sized. However, bushing dies from RCBS and Redding are probably the best ones out there commercially; Sierra uses Redding ones on their cases they'er made for and get great results.

Then decap fired cases separately in another die and toss that die's expander ball someplace.[/QUOTE]

Better yet, forego the die completely and get a single purpose decapper die. RCBS as well as Lyman have one and they aren't much cost wise plus, because they are dedicated decappers, the decap pin/shaft is larger in diameter and stronger-less probe to breakage, I've never broke either the Lyman or the RCBS. The Lyman has a bit bigger bore diameter. The RCBS will drag a tiny bit on a 338-416 case. The Lyman clears the case entirely. The RCBS uses a ballless (that sounds terrible ) shaft of larger than normal diameter affixed in the normal RCBS (threaded with stop nuts and headed decapping pin) way and the Lyman uses a brazed in cap, shaft with decapping pin.

I like them because I want to decap, then clean then size in that order.

As long as we are discussing dies, I want to bring up a hint of sorts...

On RCBS dies, the expander ball decapping pin collet sometimes appears to be off center when you rotate the die body and observe the end of the expander ball rod. Whats occuring is the the slop in the threaded rod allows the jam nut to lock the shaft slightly offcenter. Thats easily fixed by adding a ground and case hardened flat washer between the jam nut and the top knurled knob before tightening the jam nut. The washer spreads out the locking force and allows the expander ball/shaft to center in the bore....

See, that N/S die has no tangible use anymore....lol

 

[Sully2]

I'll make a note of that and prior to, I'll shoot you a PM and we can meet in person. I usually go with some of the group I shoot with and I have a very good friend who lives just south of there (out in the swampland) who usually shows up too. Real good waterfowl hunting in the grassy marshlands to the south of Route 2. Ohio bangs me pretty hard on the non resident permit but it's cheaper than going out west and my Federal stamp is good anywhere.

I never have been to Perry to "shoot" but have spent a LOT of time there. In the 50's and 60's when my father was 1sgt of his NG company....mom and I usually spent a week there. After pop passed away I myself spent 7 summer camps at Perry.

From tar paper covered shacks to billet troops in to tearing down the mess halls that were their for them to build new facilities....been more than just a time or two.

 

[Bart B]

As long as we are discussing dies, I want to bring up a hint of sorts...

On RCBS dies, the expander ball decapping pin collet sometimes appears to be off center when you rotate the die body and observe the end of the expander ball rod. Whats occuring is the the slop in the threaded rod allows the jam nut to lock the shaft slightly offcenter. Thats easily fixed by adding a ground and case hardened flat washer between the jam nut and the top knurled knob before tightening the jam nut. The washer spreads out the locking force and allows the expander ball/shaft to center in the bore.

I too, have noticed off center decapping pins and expander balls. Someone suggested I put a decapped case in the press, lower the rod until the pin goes through the flash hole then tighten the lock ring; very tight. That fairly well centers the expander in the die.

Regarding off center expander balls, after measuring neck runout on fired cases then full length sizing them in conventional dies and checking neck runout again, the tighter the expander ball is in the sized down case neck and the more friction there is, the more the necks get bent as the ball goes up and out of them.

That can be minimized by first cleaning out the powder/primer residue in fired case mouths by running them over a spinning bore brush in an electric drill. Do this before cleaning the cases.

Another thing to do is use the next larger size expander ball then polish it down to the same diameter as the original but with a much smoother finish. I've polished down .31 caliber expander balls to diameters of .3075" to .3085" in .0005" steps to get less neck tension on 30 caliber cases. RCBS 30 caliber expander balls have typically been .3070" diameter; to me, that's too small. Case mouths deburred with traditional tools typically make a sharp edge on the inside that can scrape off a lot of bullet jacket unevenly around them and that unbalances them. I use an Easy Out turned clockwise to debure trimmed cases. Radiusing that edge with a bore brush and using larger expander balls helps a lot.

Opening up the neck in full length sizing dies or using bushing dies solves all these bent neck issues.

One can use most any die for a larger case to decap smaller cartridges in their press. Be sure to mount it high enough in the press to clear the case mouth.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

The only comment that I can add...

It was said earlier that this is a "hunting site" and hunting is why I make my decisions.

A full length sized case always chambers easily. Having to wrestle with a tight fitting case while in a hunting situation is an inconvenience that does not have to be dealt with. Especially if a follower is needed.

My .02

Steve

 

[Kevin Thomas]

The only comment that I can add...
A full length sized case always chambers easily. Having to wrestle with a tight fitting case while in a hunting situation is an inconvenience that does not have to be dealt with.

And these few, simple lines right here sum up the entire concept, from start to finish. Doesn't matter how accurate the ammo "might" be, if you can't get it chambered (or extracted) when you have the shot of a lifetime standing right in front of you.

Good on ya' Steve!

 

[amce]

Bit confused here. I reload two calibres, .223 Rem (Norma brass) and .260 Rem (Lapua brass). I use the Redding Competition Neck Bushing and Seating dies and have so far only neck-sized. The Normas have been redone five times to date and the Lapuas six times.

I've read time and again that neck-sizing is ok for range work but in a hunting situation you would need to avoid the risk of neck-sized only cartridges MAYBE sticking and making a follow-up shot difficult.

Thing is, I've never had a single problem with any of my neck-sized reloads, never! Makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong. Is my reloading process flawed?

Want to add that I only partially neck-size - about 3/4 of the neck length. Sub 0.5 MOA all the time out of factory standard Sako Varmints.

Cheers

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

I've got a 22/250 factory 700VS that has about 2000 rounds through it..I've partially sized the neck, about half way and seat the bullet at that point it shoots sub half inch groups all day long even with that many rounds through it. Amazing how much slop there is in factory cut chambers..you can actually see the bulge where the die stopped sizing..looks funny but shoots like crazy..

 

[TOM H]

The only comment that I can add...

It was said earlier that this is a "hunting site" and hunting is why I make my decisions.

A full length sized case always chambers easily. Having to wrestle with a tight fitting case while in a hunting situation is an inconvenience that does not have to be dealt with. Especially if a follower is needed.

My .02

Steve

You are 100% right "this is hunting site" and we load based on that.