Very interesting thread guys. Lots of knowledge in this forum. Seems that opinions differ 180 degrees. I appreciate everyone's response and will continue to study the issue. Thanks again.
Robby
Robby
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Neck sizing belted magnums
- Thread starter Doc88
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
A lot of people are doing many different things because of the rules of the match they are competing in.
I personally don't consider many types of matches Bench Rest just because they shoot off of a bench and use sand bags and a front rest of some type. This type of shooting is normally for score and not for total group size (Precision)
The most accurate rifles in the world are rail guns and require the very best ammo to be competitive
I have never seen an unlimited bench rest shooter shoot 2 to 3 seconds apart. I have competed in 300 yard rapid fire matches that required 10 shots in 60 seconds with a loading half way through the string. With a bolt rifle you were forced to shoot every 4 seconds or you would not finish. this was position shooting with Iron sites.
True precision shooting is a different sport, and I have seen these guys shoot and they were in no hurry and they do there loading at the match. most bring only enough brass for one group at a time
and it is specially prepared and tested for the best accuracy. they also number the cases for the most consistent group and shoot them in order.
When I competed at the long range matches, (1000 to 1200 yards) I chose the method of watching the conditions and waiting for them to be the same before each shot rather that chasing the mirage
and the wind. We had 20 minutes to fire 20 rounds and sometimes I would use all of it.
I loaded 3 to 4 different types of ammo for the matches and only partially full sized for the rapid fire events to assure loading all of the long range precision ammo was loaded as I described earlier to get the most precision from my rifle.
I would like to have seen the group size of the lady on the video but they were shooting for score
and precision groups don't mean much.
I once shot a 300 yard match (Iron sites and 10 rounds in 1 minute for 20 shots and scored a perfect score of 20 X in a 3'' x ring but that was not what I call precision shooting with a 1 MOA
group. It was a very good score but I have hunting rifles that will do less that 1'' groups @ 300
yards if I load precision ammo and take my time to get the best hold and trigger control, so I think we are talking about to different types of shooting. shooting for score, or shooting for precision.
I won many matches because I took the time to load the best ammo I could not because I was such a good shot. There were many shooters that would say "aw you don't need to do that" or "That's close enough". Some would try to convince others shooters that there way was the best way. (Because they wanted to stay ahead of them and continue to win) and in truth they did not practice
what they preached. They kept there little secrets to them selves.
The bottom line is do what you want and live with the results. I have tested every process that will make a rifle more accurate and every loading technique to get the most consistence and will never change it except for improving it if I can.
Just my opinion
J E CUSTOM
bigedp51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,022
The best part of reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how he wants to do it.
I prefer full length resizing and shooting at the range when no one else is at the range. That way there is no doubt who was the best shot at the range that day.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Interesting but lot of misinformation and old school reloading BS and war stories not remotely relevant today.
I started LR BR in 98 and a 9" group was a winner for any match and the nationals. Last year the 1k BR nationals the winner ran three 3 inch groups in LG (5 shots) and HG (10 shots) each and almost perfect scores. I believe his 10 match agg was in the low 4 inches. So how you reloaded 20 to 40 years ago as technique is as valid and relevant as morse code is today. I started with Lee dippers and a Lyman 310 hand tool and dies in the late 60s and now use carefuly fitted FL busing dies, fitted expanding mandrels, anneal and expensive electronic scales for each powder charge, sorted and pointed bullets and the list goes on.
If anyone bothered to read the books by Tony Boyer and Mike Ratigan, two of the best short range BR shooters ever, who are on the World teams and hold more records than any other 20 shooters, they would know that both highly recommend FL sizing with correct dies and they both go into explicit detail and clearly explain why you FL size and how to do it correctly. Do not believe me, go read their books.
Take a look at the SR shooters who use Harrels dies as they have about 3-4 BR calibers in .001 sizing increments to match almost any chamber. They are one of the top competitive dies and cost about $80 and will exchange if you need a tighter or looser die.
The score shooters are 99.9% shooting the 30 BR or some variant and if you read and listen to the interviews from the top score shooters, almost to a man/woman they are using fitted FL dies many by Harrels as they are so easy to match up. Necks may have loosened up from the .001 neck clearence many were running and neck tension is still the big issue for both LR and SR. Annealing every time is very common and using a fitted expanding mandrel after sizing is also common. (hint hint)
The LR BR guys 99% run dies that match their chambers and FL size every time. I know a few that with the WSM will NS only for 2x then FL size but no one who only NS. They are either running a dasher or variant or the WSM for 95% of the shooters. Tooley experiments a lot and was running a 300/375 with new test Hornady bullets last year and doing very well but again he is using fitted FL dies.
Here is the number one reason no BR shooter wants a slight crush fit, the slightest bolt hesitation or drag causes the gun to shift in the bags and your next shot will be out of the group!!! If you ever watch the routine done to get the guns correctly seated in the bags you would understand they importance there.
The video posted of Vera Carter with the spray and pray tagline was indicative of someone who did not understand what he was seeing. Vera got off the first couple rounds and then waited for her wind condition to come back and trust me there was not any spray and pray crap going on there. If you look, not even her finger was touching the trigger on a 1-2 oz trigger. Her cheek was floating and I am betting free recoil and you think she wants a case to hang up or drag.
Crush fit or NS cartridges will bite you in the *** at some point and at the wrong time every time. Again, **** few if any SR or LR BR shooters do that as they know better. You might find and old school "picker" that still believes in that. You have two types of BR shooters, pickers and runners and that applies to SR, LR and score guys. Pickers try to pick a certain condition over the entire time period and shoot only in that one condition and very slowly. Runners pick one condition and then run their shots very quickly in that condition unless caught with a change and then come back to it later.
The whole key is a carefully fitted and adjusted die with give you the most uniform case every time and the most reliable. In a match or hunt is the wrong time for a case to hang up going in or out.
I started LR BR in 98 and a 9" group was a winner for any match and the nationals. Last year the 1k BR nationals the winner ran three 3 inch groups in LG (5 shots) and HG (10 shots) each and almost perfect scores. I believe his 10 match agg was in the low 4 inches. So how you reloaded 20 to 40 years ago as technique is as valid and relevant as morse code is today. I started with Lee dippers and a Lyman 310 hand tool and dies in the late 60s and now use carefuly fitted FL busing dies, fitted expanding mandrels, anneal and expensive electronic scales for each powder charge, sorted and pointed bullets and the list goes on.
If anyone bothered to read the books by Tony Boyer and Mike Ratigan, two of the best short range BR shooters ever, who are on the World teams and hold more records than any other 20 shooters, they would know that both highly recommend FL sizing with correct dies and they both go into explicit detail and clearly explain why you FL size and how to do it correctly. Do not believe me, go read their books.
Take a look at the SR shooters who use Harrels dies as they have about 3-4 BR calibers in .001 sizing increments to match almost any chamber. They are one of the top competitive dies and cost about $80 and will exchange if you need a tighter or looser die.
The score shooters are 99.9% shooting the 30 BR or some variant and if you read and listen to the interviews from the top score shooters, almost to a man/woman they are using fitted FL dies many by Harrels as they are so easy to match up. Necks may have loosened up from the .001 neck clearence many were running and neck tension is still the big issue for both LR and SR. Annealing every time is very common and using a fitted expanding mandrel after sizing is also common. (hint hint)
The LR BR guys 99% run dies that match their chambers and FL size every time. I know a few that with the WSM will NS only for 2x then FL size but no one who only NS. They are either running a dasher or variant or the WSM for 95% of the shooters. Tooley experiments a lot and was running a 300/375 with new test Hornady bullets last year and doing very well but again he is using fitted FL dies.
Here is the number one reason no BR shooter wants a slight crush fit, the slightest bolt hesitation or drag causes the gun to shift in the bags and your next shot will be out of the group!!! If you ever watch the routine done to get the guns correctly seated in the bags you would understand they importance there.
The video posted of Vera Carter with the spray and pray tagline was indicative of someone who did not understand what he was seeing. Vera got off the first couple rounds and then waited for her wind condition to come back and trust me there was not any spray and pray crap going on there. If you look, not even her finger was touching the trigger on a 1-2 oz trigger. Her cheek was floating and I am betting free recoil and you think she wants a case to hang up or drag.
Crush fit or NS cartridges will bite you in the *** at some point and at the wrong time every time. Again, **** few if any SR or LR BR shooters do that as they know better. You might find and old school "picker" that still believes in that. You have two types of BR shooters, pickers and runners and that applies to SR, LR and score guys. Pickers try to pick a certain condition over the entire time period and shoot only in that one condition and very slowly. Runners pick one condition and then run their shots very quickly in that condition unless caught with a change and then come back to it later.
The whole key is a carefully fitted and adjusted die with give you the most uniform case every time and the most reliable. In a match or hunt is the wrong time for a case to hang up going in or out.
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
I knew exactly what I was seeing - I own two bench rifles and shot bench for a number of years - my point was that the techniques that are used in current bench are not applicable to other types of shooting.
I your above comment is indicative of someone that didn't understand what you were reading.
I knew exactly what I was seeing - I own two bench rifles and shot bench for a number of years - my point was that the techniques that are used in current bench are not applicable to other types of shooting.
I your above comment is indicative of someone that didn't understand what you were reading.
I understood perfectly and my comments stand.
Explain why the BS line about "spray and pray". Your comment not mine and totally disengenous and misleading at best case. Obviously you as I stated are not current if that is what you see.
The techniques are very applicable the question is to what degree/tolerance. Not everyone needs a gun that can shoot 1/3 MOA 10 times in a row consistently at 1k over months **** few have the skill to do that. That is different than one 1/4 MOA group out of 25 tries or you only have to fight one round out of 15 to chamber or extract.
Accuracy is accuracy, reliability is reliability period. How the hell is that not applicable?
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
Because score and group are two completely different aminals. Two different styles and two different requirements.
NOT in the accuracy and reliability department. NO DIFFERENCE
I have shoot group (not my cup of tea) and group (I had a 30 BR)
Lot of crossover between the two with exactly the same guns with 30 BRs shooting in group and some 6PPC shoot in score. The ONLY major difference is in score, the 30 has a distinct advantage over the 6PPC due to bullet size and the scoring criteria. 30 BRs have won group events more than once. In score, the average gun is 13.5 lbs while group has both 10 lb and 13.5 lb categories.
Upsetting the gun in the bags is extremely critical for both. Get real you are reaching to cover your comments and unsuccessfully.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Hit the nail on the head!! I run Harrel size die and a Sinclair Micro seater for my Dasher, you watch a guy like Tom Mousel run a group smooth as butter with a gun that's tracking he makes no adjustments, rock the gun and it's like starting over.
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
Not according to Jack Neary - one of the most successful bench shooter, BR HoF members, and world record holders going.
I am sure that he is wrong too.
Again, you did not listen to what he said. Go to his tuning video #2 at the 1 minute mark and listen with ears open this time. He FL sizes and wants just to feel the case at the "bottom" of the bolt not half way down. No crush, no resistance half way down as you said.
Might want to read Boyers and Ratigans book too.
keep digging.
