My New 2025 Varmint Rig is Finally a Reality!

Thanks for all the encouraging comments! and yes, Fred is not just a craftsman, but over the years I've been a witness to a lot of his project that display just how talented he is, and what an artist he can be! The man is an underrated Gun Smith as well.

What a great build! Love the stock, sooo much character. I assume it's built to shoot off a rabbit ear rear bag the way it's configured? That may be a bad guess, so please feel free to educate me.

I also love the cartridge you're shooting. My 257 Roberts AI is my hands down favorite. Easy on the shoulder if I keep the loads in the "safe and sane" range, but very capable of higher-end performance when I decide to pressure-up a bit. I'm approaching 257 Weatherby performance with a couple of loads that I don't dare share on a public forum.

Another assumption - since you've mentioned no bullet heavier than 88 grains yet I assume you're shooting a 9 or 10 twist barrel? I'm running an X-Caliber 9 twist and am very pleased with it, especially with the line-up of bullets I've used to this point, the heaviest being the 115gr Berger VLDH followed by the 110gr ELD-X. I want to use my 257 for long-ish range coyote/varmint hunting with occassional deer hunts using the 101gr LRX (California :rolleyes:).

EDIT: The thread with some load data for StaBall 6.5 - still in progress: https://www.longrangehunting.com/th...7-roberts-ai-110gr-115gr.361045/#post-3278456

So - more info desired on the barrel, reamer, brass and bolt mods please. Looking forward to more pics when your weather gets sunny again. I'm going to tag along on this thread and hope to see your load developement and performance info as well.

Thanks for sharing!
Thank you AF I certainly will be keeping this thread posted once I begin load work. Right now I'm on 4 rounds, 1 shot and clean, and just cleaned up after 3 more. Just breaking in the barrel and forming some brass, have not even put it on paper at this point, 17 degrees in 20 to 25 mph winds has a lot to do with that! But we are doing this on a 1-10 twist barrel, the fastest twist I will ever use again for a true long range varmint rigg. I've tried heavy for caliber faster twist barrels for the heavy bullets, and found they are not intended for long range varmints, at least if you want damage. They are accurate enough, they are just slow once they get out there to do devastating damage. With their heavier construction, to withstand the rpms they are subjected to, they won't do what the lighter varmint bullets do at arriving at the same speeds and usually the lighter bullets are still running a tad faster, with a more delicate construction, to actually do something on the tiny targets. I'll leave the target bullets for just that, and distinguish the difference between target and varmint, if I'm searching for the absolute best for each discipline! By the way, this one of more expensive lessons!

But right now I'm just feeding 55 grains of H4831, when the loads starts I'll turn to H4350 for starters. I have seen others results with the StaBall6.5, and it is definitely getting them great speed with accuracy to boot! BUT, like many things in life when your my age,, your kinda set in your ways, I think so, but some say i'm not set in my ways, I'm just Bull Headed? I call it educated?? But the loads are forming great, and expect I'm around 3400+ fps, Ill check it when I get some weather to see just what it is doing. But it is showing me in the formed cases I should have enough space for up to 60.5 grains of usable powder space with H4831. Nosler shows 56 max load for this bullet at near 3500 fps, but that is not at magnum pressures, one thing I know these cases and this action is more than capable of for pressure. That is what we find out, with the tuned bushed time ignition system, this rifle was built for pressure!

But in the past I made a decision to swear off ball powder, at least for my rifle loads. Probably from some bad experiences with BLC2, way back in the 70's, and way back when I thought I was a true advanced reloader,,,, 50 year later I think I'm pretty much the same thing, but I know how lacking I was back then, and it's possible, if I'm still doing this in another decade or 2, I'll think different as well. But I turned to all the stick powders back then, and for anything from short range Benchrest, to long even some rimfire loading way bak, to big game cartridges I have always done great without the ball powders, spare the love for them in my revolvers, with powders like HS-6, 231, and HP38 one in the same, and a special love for H-110 / 296, also one in the same.

I hope I will find love again in this cartridge with the H4350, using these 85 and 88 grain bullets. I used the 85's exclusively in my last 257 Bob. I might get enough powder and speed with top accuracy to use the H4831, but I'll work both up with to see what optimum is, and either will have to turn in optimum accuracy to get the cal. I found them to be very accurate, and the most satisfying for results out at least 800 yards. I had pretty good results with other bullets for accuracy, using the H4350 but none more accurate, and non as destructive at long range. Many would satisfy inside 300 yards but once I got beyond that, those 85 BT made a bigger mess of anything the come in contact with than the others. I had a friend so impressed he tried them in his 25-06 and was ecstatic withem, until he shot his Antelope and Mule Deer that year. They destroyed the Lope, but the Mule Deer he though he was going to loose, then when he finely recovered it, there was a lot of destruction, with less than ideal penetration. They are made for Varmint, and we understood that after that.

But I didn't have near the choice we have in 25 caliber back then, and the 100's just didn't do the damage beyond 200 or 300 yards the 85 would, so this is where we start again! I have great hopes for the Bib's 88's after some long discussions for my wants with Randy. I have been very happy with his bullets in my 600 yard BR, competing against the 105's to 115's in full blown bench guns in the bigger Dashers, XC's, and 6x47 Lapua's. His 52's and and special bullet he doesn't offer in my 222 still gets attention on the short range matches against the 6ppc guy's and gals. and his 65 grin 6mm it is my bullet of choice in my 6x47 Mohawk walking varmint rifle. So needless to say the 88's are highly anticipated this go around.

But anything over that is not on my list for this rifle. I found the heavier bullets to do less damage when you get them past about 600 yards to suite me. I can't start them fast enough and the 85's and hopefully 88's are still running faster, and with their lighter construction, at least I know on the 85 BT, to give a much more devastating result beyond that. I am from the mindset, if I don't kick them, they were misses. Even when I have blood, any don't physically walk out and check out were missed. time will tell, and I'll list it here as find all these answers.

I also won't rule the other powders out, but I'll have to see others having better results to start with newer powders. Like I said, Accuracy is #1 with the speed to delivery, and speed is priority #2.
 
My first Bob started life as a factory 257 Roberts in a classic 722 Remington my father bought back in the early 60's or late 50's not sure when he first got it, but I was quite young. Back then he was confused by others and though WD-40 was like Formaldehyde for rifles, which we know today is a poor protectant! But in the early 80's he gave me the rifle after not being used and only setting in a wood rifle case for over a couple decades. Along with a pristine 308 win in a 760 Remington pump, both classics, and both needing chambers redone by the end of the 1970's. The chamber was pitted bad enough on both that extraction became impossible on both with anything considered a mild load due to chamber pitting! Ya the barrels were in need of help as well, but useable, and the he would take them out every year or so and wipe them down, again with fresh treated WD-40, but only giving any attention to the outsides, and putting them back in the glass doored case, only be used for eye candy.

So the old Bob shot pretty good for it's lack of care, with slightly warmer loads of 4895 than listed with the Hornady 87 SP around 3/4" to 1", if shooting 3 shot groups, but every time I would have to knock the spent case out with a cleaning rod thru the muzzle. I polished and polished with I think Flitz, but not sure we even had that in the 80's. But I got it where I could hit the bolt with a small leather mallet to get them out. I finally had it rechambered to a 25-284, but 8 tom10 rounds, and the 1" groups grew. But I remember being fascinated at flat it shot as the Bob and what those 87 grain bullets did to whistle pigs. But just didn't care for the 25-284, and probably mainly because of the Hornady dies I had to use for it as all I could find back then.

So, this was just a couple years after my friend, and first real mentor, Fred Sinclair had introduced me to Ron Pence, a custom barrel maker just gaining some notoriety at that time. Actually I had met him after Fred would no longer build rifles, and I wanted to build my first Benchrest rifle back then on an XP action under Fred's guidance. That was my first super accurate rifle, and won many matches with that gun as both a 6br Tall Dog, and then a 6ppc when the brass became available, . That was why Fred suggested using that action for My first Benchrest rifle, as it was a custom I had in 308 win for unlimited Silhouette as a handgun built by Crowly from a Fireball back then, and when he opened the bolt up he used an m-16 style extractor, plus the back of that action had been scalloped for less weight. But enough, that was how I met Ron.

So we talked one about this rifle, and Ron had no reemers in 25 caliber, but I was enthused by how it shot so flat and how it destroyed the couple ground hogs out about 300 yards that I was able to hit with it. I knew it was no way getting a fair chance in the condition the barrel was in for accuracy. Ron had no experience with the 25 calibers, as back then with the new 6ppc coming on the seen, everyone was flocking to the 6mm for both target and varmint. He tried to convince me on the 243 to rechamber it, or even a 6mm Remington. But I was stead fast on having and evaluation a 1/4 bore rifle. So I agreed to pay half price for a new 257 Roberts, AI reamer. Mainly because I did have a commercial 7x57 Mauser on the Interarms action, that I had a local so so gunsmith rechamber to the 7x57 Ackley, I called it my 7mm short mag, as it was everything the 284 win was and maybe just a tad more, but that was my very first Ackley. So the decision was made to go for the new reamer, and a HV hand cut Pence Barrel with a 1-10 twist for undern 100 grain bullets.

That build was glued me and Ron as good friends, we were both surprised at not just the performance of the new rifle, but the accuracy, which we made even better after destroying the the forearm on 722 stock when opened it up and pillar bedded that 722 action to make this a working rifle. So I decided to go see me other old friend Tom Meredith who I also met years bak thru Fred Sinclair. Tom grind when I told him what I had, and what I wanted, and instantly introduced me to Dragonfire! This was a McMillan Benchrest stock he had configured for an old friend out west for a long range Varmint rig on a 700 action. He had recently took it in on trade for another stock he did for the guy for a new build. It was the one above I painted over the dragons on the side, they were red on a Black gloss finished meredith paint job. Tom was quite the artist in his own trade!

Anyways that was the story on my love affair with the 1/4 bore. Over the last 40 years I've after that first 257 got totally wore out I had Ron rebore the barrel to .300 rifle it for 308. We built another Ackley cartridge on, a 30-06 AI, accurate enough, but hardly an Improvement. If it was better it was not evident, there just want enough there to light a fire and feel I had made a big improvement in the old 30-06.

So I had Ron make me a 1-10 twist for a 6mm Remington, and this time, Ron popped for the AI reamer. I've since built three, and the last was an expensive lesson! The first with a 1-8 barrel for the heavies, and a hard lesson in the differance between Target rifles, and hunting rifles! I decided this after having such great results at 600 Benchrest with a 6BR I'll explain that, but after having such great results with it and 108 Bergers. I wanted more gusto! Hence a 6x47 Lapua, a little more than the Dasher, without stomping the guts out of my brass to get it. Again, another great rifle that did exactly what I expected.

That 6BR was built on that very first Pence barrel we chambered in 6mm Remington AI over 20 years ago, then about 6 years ago when I had Fred at SSS scope it, at around 1200 rounds, it so bad I would take an entire day to clean it, we found about 4 inches of burnt out throat, with some fire cracking a couple inches beyond that. Ron had quit building barrels about that time so it set in the safe. But since Ron won't build anymore barrels, and it is a 1-10 27.5" barrel in Heavy Varmint contour, so we decided to take 4.5 " off the breach then ream it for a turn 6BR, which produced like new results. 3500 fps with 65 grain Bibs producing .3" to under .5" groups when I do my part. It is used very sparingly and only on varmints today. That is also on a Savage Axis, and shares itself with another highly prized Pence barrel in 17 ca. But this one requieres a bolt head change, as it is chambered in Rons favorite cartridge, a 17 Mach IV, also only used today to shoot varmints, sparingly, as both are irreplaceable today.
1D MK IV013.JPG


Anyway bak to my lesson. Since I was doing so good on the 6mm band wagon, and all my projects were being successful, we decided to build a replacement for the 257 AI for Long Range Varmint. I mean the heavies were doing great and accuracy was as good in both the BR and the faster 6x47, why not run em 3500 fps in the big 6mm AI case? So we got a 1-8 Krieger, and decided I would use the same Stainless Steel Axis I built both the BR and Lapua in using the Laminated BR stock Fred built using a rail for an insert to allow bipod use for shooting Varmints in the field.

Sad thing was before I even got it together, my "demons" started appearing. First when I talked to Bob Blaine at Capstone inquiring about his thoughts on 105 VLD's or the new Target 105 EH and the 108 Target and EH. He thought maybe the EH bullets would not like the rpms I would create and over stress them. That maybe the thicker jackets used for the target bullets would possibly take the stress I would be putting on them with the bigger faster case.

The more "demons" reared their head when I talked to Randy Robinett. I want to order some of his hard to get at the time, nearly impossible, 104's. We had everything looking promising him to get me them before the barrel would get here and have them ready to test when he popped the question. "What are you wanting to shoot them for"? As soon as I told him, and said driving the hard in a 6mm Remington AI, there was a pause, then " wow Bob I'd really hate to send them to you, I have my doubts they are going to work".

Now after talking with Bob, who knows what he is talking about with the Bergers, Randy went into detail explaining! He did not think, again, that the bullets would perform to my standards at the "RPM" I would be spinning them. I didn't understand, as I knew I have to use a 1-8 to twist them fast enough to stabilize them. I wasn't registering the revolution per minute statement, from the spin per inch. Two big differences, and probably why 600 yard BR, where absolute accuracy trumps good enough to win, always involves cartridges generating optimum pressure at 3200 and lower velocity. It was at that speed the big bullets start to create to many rpms, and stress getting them spinning that fast overcomes the integrity of the bullet to take it and still deliver optimum accuracy!

But even after the in depth information from Randy, I was bound to try for myself. Knowing that optimum accuracy was compromised, any speed I could get was useless to me. After over 2 months, with both VLDs and EH, Hottenstein 108 barn Burners, Barts 103 hammers, H4831, N160, RL 22 and a couple others, all shot pretty good in the .2/s at 3100 or a little more, but by 3150 fps they all started opening up and the groups just grew from their. 3500 fps was available, but that meant .5" to .6" groups. That meant assured misses even when I doped everything perfectly at 600 yards, by the time you get to 800 the best you could hope for was 5" groups, which meant high percentage misses, like I say even if I doped the conditions and ballistics perfectly,,, which humanly impossible at those yardages in field conditions.

Expensive lesson, but I won't confuse what's best for Long Range TARGET shooting, with WHY it is different than what's BEST for hunting Long Range. Now if absolute best accuracy wasn't my #1 goal in everything I shoot, I guess I would look at this like others, but remember that Bull head I mentioned. @ 70+ thats likely not to change!

So there you have it. Not just my beginnings with this cartridge, but why I came back. don't get me wrong, the 6mm AI is a great LR varmint round, but when every box has to be checked, I'll run with the quarter bore. Today, over 30 years later, I have much better loading technique, components and equipment. I have to think this will be an even more effective rigg than that old 722 had at the time.

But that is how my love for this old cartridge, and the lessons I've learned around it evolved. I also am adding another AI Bob this year. I have my absolute last Hunting rig under way as we speak, it is a primary big game rifle being built in a 338-06 AI, and as light as I can to keep accuracy a primary goal, while making it light enough for a 70 year old man to carry all day for days. I am later going to have a second barrel built for it for anything smaller than Black Bear and Mule deer in the same #4 sporter contour 24" 1-9" to match the #4 Brux 338 barrel, it's the lightest contour Brux will make the 330 bore on. I want both barrels to fit the 20 oz stock it is being built on. But again, after 30 years of experimenting, I want this classic caliber part of that very special rifle as well.

Sorry for the long read, but I only covered part of my reasoning as well as feelings for this old classic, and why it is so special to me!
 
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