I can imagine lol. I'm surprised you've stuck with it this long lol. Nice work.
My HBN experience and process
- Thread starter Calvin45
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Calvin45
Well-Known Member
I've had a lot more time stuck at home to be tinkering with gun stuff than I've had time to be out shooting, again on account of having had four kids in less than four years
(twins changes everything). I'm happy to have something interesting to waste some time on that's still related to my hobby when I can't really just get out of town and go shoot like I used to be able to. And I do find it very satisfying and for me it really has lived up to its claims, and is especially wonderful with bullets like those old school Barnes x, swift sciroccos with their pure copper jackets, and long bearing surface bullets like my beloved 225 eld m. But I've yet to find a bullet where it was a bad thing. I don't bother with it for my 8mm Mauser or .358 norma magnum, just don't see any point whatsoever for those.
I only have three kids, but they're all teens or about to be and are involved in so many things I feel like talking about my hobbies is all I get to do anymore lolI've had a lot more time stuck at home to be tinkering with gun stuff than I've had time to be out shooting, again on account of having had four kids in less than four years
I don't bother with it for my 8mm Mauser or .358 norma magnum, just don't see any point whatsoever for those.
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
Very nice write up, impressed with how you set out the process.
As you know, I've been doing this too for a good while and got my newer info from David Tubb too. My process is a little different, still use heat, but when I started I was under coating and not using steel balls, I still use ceramic balls, but I tumble twice. I run the HBN into the barrel with Shellite (Mineral Spirits) because it is the fastest evaporites you can buy and cleans extremely well.
I haven't tried it on any pure copper bullets, interesting it coats them so well, it works exceptionally well on pure brass bullets, and ABLR bullets really like it as does Berger, Nosler CC and RDF respond well to the coating. I know I won't be going back to bare bullets when I start comp shooting again.
Cheers.
As you know, I've been doing this too for a good while and got my newer info from David Tubb too. My process is a little different, still use heat, but when I started I was under coating and not using steel balls, I still use ceramic balls, but I tumble twice. I run the HBN into the barrel with Shellite (Mineral Spirits) because it is the fastest evaporites you can buy and cleans extremely well.
I haven't tried it on any pure copper bullets, interesting it coats them so well, it works exceptionally well on pure brass bullets, and ABLR bullets really like it as does Berger, Nosler CC and RDF respond well to the coating. I know I won't be going back to bare bullets when I start comp shooting again.
Cheers.
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
No, it's a complicated answer actually. The 2 layers slide against each other reducing total friction even more. This is the easiest answer I can give. Pressure has a large effect on how slippery it becomes, not necessarily velocity.
Cheers.
Reducing friction reduces heat and pressure hence why the velocity drops. Heat is pressure related if you have to add powder to get the same velocity ( with reduced friction ) the heat should be the same ( same velocity ).
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
MagnumManiac already answered and I agree with him REGARDING BALLISTICS…I don't think it's gonna benefit anything regarding sd, es, cold bore poi changing with subsequent shots, velocity, etc….if you're running naked bullets.
That being said, it should still provide a benefit to the bore of your rifle regarding longevity, once it's been forcefully embedded into the metal by that first round to go down the pipe, it's not coming back out. And should in theory make the throat more resistant to erosion from heat, pressure, and friction but I am not qualified to answer that to a certainty. Just what makes sense, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can comment on that possibility.
Really what someone needs to do is get four identical rifles (which I understand is technically impossible but try), one naked bullets and bore, one naked bore with coated bullets, one naked bullets in a treated bore, and one treated bullets and bore. Fire like 300 rounds no cleaning through each in one day haha, and inspect the bore with a bore scope and see what if any difference there is in fouling and ease of cleaning.
I do not have time or especially money for such testing but it sounds fun and would give some hardball real answers.
crkckr
Well-Known Member
Very interesting write up, thank you taking the time. I've been moly plating virtually all of my .22 and .308 bullets for quite some time and it does work, even though I always clean my barrels after shooting. The moly has no effect on accuracy, it simply extends the number of rounds that can be fired between cleanings and makes the barrels easier to clean. I've not tested seating depth differences since most of my rounds in both calibers are limited by magazines.
The moly is a huge mess and I swore I was going to the hbn when I used up my moly powder but it's looking like I pretty much have a lifetime supply (like the hbn, you don't need much!). I think, just because of the mess moly leaves I might make the jump to hbn anyway.
Does the heating part have anything to do with the plating part? I'm not sure how well my Thumblers Tumbler will withstand that amount of heat, although the barrel rubber is awfully tough. Would it be ok to heat the bullets and let them cool a bit before tumbling? I also use SS pins for cleaning and tumbling (seperate batches of pins, of course) so would they would be ok for the hbn process? They sure do a fantastic job with the moly!
Cheers,
crkckr
The moly is a huge mess and I swore I was going to the hbn when I used up my moly powder but it's looking like I pretty much have a lifetime supply (like the hbn, you don't need much!). I think, just because of the mess moly leaves I might make the jump to hbn anyway.
Does the heating part have anything to do with the plating part? I'm not sure how well my Thumblers Tumbler will withstand that amount of heat, although the barrel rubber is awfully tough. Would it be ok to heat the bullets and let them cool a bit before tumbling? I also use SS pins for cleaning and tumbling (seperate batches of pins, of course) so would they would be ok for the hbn process? They sure do a fantastic job with the moly!
Cheers,
crkckr
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I cannot comment on stainless pins or thumblers tumbler as I don't own either of those products.
I can say that yes the heat helps with the plating BUT I'm sure you don't need to start out as hot as I do. It just gets the job faster i find.
Same with vibratory tumblers…they can and do work. They don't work nearly as well or as fast. But I've heard of folks putting bullets BBs and hbn powder just loose in a vibratory tumbler and plugging it in outside in direct sun, especially in places like Arizona haha…just takes many hours, not one hour, to get the equivalent result, if possible at all. I've experimented with that in the past with mixed results, running mine in a Lyman turbo tumbler WITH an old hair dryer/blow dryer
Of my wife's taped up above it blasting the contents of the tumbler with hot air. Between her hair dryer, her nail polish remover which I use for acetone, her good tweezers that I've used to get springs back where they belong on small parts as my ape fingers just drop them, and this "cosmetic grade" HBN powder on my bench I think she's starting to wonder what exactly it is I'm doing down there
For what it's worth, that level of heat (200-225 f) doesn't do anything to polymer bullet tips, even if they're not the heat shield hornady ones
, even when they start tumbling into each other at that temp. It also had no effect on the empty powder container I use. If worried tho, drop it down to 160 Fahrenheit. That's the temperature you're supposed to steam the milk to when making a latte or
Cuppacino. Yes, I know this because I do it
. I drink lattes and shoot a .358 Norma, don't even own a 6.5 creed (or a scarf, I have a beard for that) The universe is broken. Anyway, if it's at a temperature that won't burn a precious hipster's mouth I'm sure your tumbler will be fine
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Here's some more pictures, I've posted some before.
In the top we have treated and untreated together.
280 grain .358 swift a frame untreated
75 grain Barnes x 6mm treated
95 grain Nosler ballistic tip 6mm treated
100 grain Nosler ballistic tip .257 treated
250 grain 358 hornady interlock untreated
75 grain hammer hunter .257 treated
90 grain absolute hammer 257 treated
120 grain 30 cal Barnes tac tx treated.
196 grain 8mm PPU soft point untreated.
A box of treated 95 ballistic tips, again, note the sheen, dulled metalicity, and muted lustre.
A 200 grain 30 cal SMK (the newer version, not the older one - g1 bc of 700 or so, a real sleek lawn dart) - treated on the left, naked on the right. It's harder to tell with bullets of 30
Caliber and higher. It takes more time to. .270 cal bullets and smaller take it much easier and are visually much more obviously different but the difference is there. I believe it was mr @Orange Dust a few years back described the long heavy 30 cal pills as having more of a "glassy" appearance after treatment than the slightly grey and notably matte appearance of the 257s and 6mms and such. That's a very apt word, the 30s and up look like they have an ultra thin coat of glass on them just about. Works the same.
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
I use a modified shot blasting tumbler with heated pads, the shot blasting apparatus is disconnected, it raises the temperature to 150°C in the 2 minutes when you switch it on…I can run 2,000 projectiles if needed, but have only done batches of 500 so far.
@Calvin45, you mentioned testing barrels to compare, I did this with my 32" 300WM barrels running coated and uncoated 210g Berger Target Hybrids, velocity difference wasn't huge, but loads were definitely different, in fact, with HBN I could load RE25 so densely, even with swirl charging, that the powder would overfill the case…
The biggest difference was in my wildcats, 338-416 Rigby Improved 45° and 375-416 Rigby Improved 40°, both had measurable increases of between 150fps and 200fps with safe pressures, this was the turning point for me and those cartridge designs.
Cheers.
@Calvin45, you mentioned testing barrels to compare, I did this with my 32" 300WM barrels running coated and uncoated 210g Berger Target Hybrids, velocity difference wasn't huge, but loads were definitely different, in fact, with HBN I could load RE25 so densely, even with swirl charging, that the powder would overfill the case…
The biggest difference was in my wildcats, 338-416 Rigby Improved 45° and 375-416 Rigby Improved 40°, both had measurable increases of between 150fps and 200fps with safe pressures, this was the turning point for me and those cartridge designs.
Cheers.
I've got a brand new pre-fit that's not been put on an action yet do you think warming up the barrel before coating it could help impregnate the bore even before the first round goes down it?
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Never would have thought of that even haha.
I've never heard of anyone doing this. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Or a good one. Really can't tell ya, perhaps someone else with experience about this can chime in
